From 3a8K6SwoJBjQikecYSXhYiWcQYb.SecbeZRQdWeeWbUWhekfi.Sec@groups.bounces.google.com Mon Apr 05 22:11:34 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3a8K6SwoJBjQikecYSXhYiWcQYb.SecbeZRQdWeeWbUWhekfi.Sec@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nz14S-00074o-BW for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 22:11:33 -0700 Received: by vws5 with SMTP id 5sf6298831vws.16 for ; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 22:11:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:to:reply-to:subject:in-reply-to:x-mailer:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url :x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=9Ui4KgTxaz1yq9g0qoo4qPaZqUTLJUb5xzsdrtcMI3M=; b=XZETkz9qCseBY4G5ddCv2/CDmE2Qc9Twv5+5GOIadJHERvRmIUJAnZRJJrT2NpMr8C Br9qTUxT9fYqQH85gnbbyIsVlMXwezffy5fYDyBbr/UvImp1uAFe7UciAeezKlwTZANg XLxfbtA15keP49V+cA3rPx83tyNant3VYAsRM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:to:reply-to:subject :in-reply-to:x-mailer:mime-version:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=CECAJ8cJxIQbJ0SISkYlnBtv2BoePMiPai0UFdFdDSKoHLRf/y1guDR1N0XgUZtQ9C p3l9ChMXIBrLNktmf0zELVxTVFuI2rKZzxWIcIo+7RC2Zgdfud59EnspK6n6NAd87bjd 3KJJQdrLkWcEb7Z/vzTF6P7onDi5oxCq22WG0= Received: by 10.220.107.86 with SMTP id a22mr481976vcp.39.1270530667434; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 22:11:07 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.79.85 with SMTP id o21ls1361826vck.0.p; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 22:11:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.159.70 with SMTP id i6mr1721572vcx.15.1270530666119; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 22:11:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.159.70 with SMTP id i6mr1721571vcx.15.1270530666062; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 22:11:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gw0-f54.google.com (mail-gw0-f54.google.com [74.125.83.54]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 29si32099813vws.2.2010.04.05.22.11.04; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 22:11:05 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.54 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.83.54; Received: by gwj15 with SMTP id 15so415199gwj.27 for ; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 22:11:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.165.11 with SMTP id n11mr7943084ybe.185.1270530664777; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 22:11:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.palm.com ([173.153.70.215]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 34sm3499053yxf.54.2010.04.05.22.11.02 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 05 Apr 2010 22:11:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4bbac268.6202be0a.7d04.ffffdb04@mx.google.com> Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 22:10:56 -0700 From: "Christopher Doty" To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] The proposed 'goals' of lojban In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Palm webOS v1.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.54 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=suomichris@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: suomichris@gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/8c345f62e9f946ce X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/c6289260b3897a41 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Alternative__boundary__1270530664039 --Alternative__boundary__1270530664039 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Man, I keep looking at you email... You're going to resolve questions that = have no answers?? For the minimum necessary?? I'm not sure I parse, but if = I do... Wtf? Chris -- Sent from my Palm Pre On Apr 5, 2010 20:01, Matt Arnold <matt.mattarn@gmail.com> wrote:=20 I hope no one misunderstands, to think that Lojban does not already meet the goals set down in the essay. It does meet them. Of course nothing is perfect-- nor can it ever be-- but Lojban leaves other languages in the dust, since they do not even make the attempt. The reason we need the goals formalized is to guide in clarifying rare words and edge-cases. Given a set of choices on a specific issue, these goals act like weights on a scale to influence the decision. With that in mind, these goals will not cause the BPFK to dither endlessly, trying to perfectly meet the goals; rather, the goals will let the BPFK quickly resolve questions for which there are no answers, the minimum necessary to settle on a release of Lojban version 5. Goal #1 currently reads: "Lojban should be as logical (internally consistent, semantically complete, ??? I don't really know how to define this well) as possible". My suggestion for goal #1 is as follows: "Minimize rule exceptions and maximize how predictably the components combine." What did I miss? -Eppcott On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 10:05 PM, Kevin Reid <kpreid@mac.com> wrote: > On Apr 5, 2010, at 20:56, =E7=99=BD=E6=9D=BE Oren wrote: > >> Mission: Full expressive freedom: Any meaning expressed in a natur= al >> language can be expressed in Lojban, and at any desired level of >> ambiguity or precision. > > > We are not interested in supporting ambiguity. We are interested in > supporting vagueness. > > (Ambiguity is discrete; vagueness is continuous. Ambiguity means the > listener has to choose among distinct and possibly very dissimilar mea= nings; > vagueness means the listener gets a broad but contiguous cluster. Ambi= guity, > if possible in the language, has to be fixed by rewriting; vagueness c= an be > fixed by adding elements.) > > -- > Kevin Reid                 &nb= sp;                <http://switc= hb.org/kpreid/> > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --Alternative__boundary__1270530664039 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Man, I keep looking at you email... You're going to resolve questions that = have no answers?? For the minimum necessary?? I'm not sure I parse, but if = I do... Wtf?

-- Sent from my Palm Pre
On Apr 5, 2010 20:01, Matt= Arnold <matt.mattarn@gmail.com> wrote:

I hope no one misunde= rstands, to think that Lojban does not already
meet the goals set down in the essay. It does meet them. Of course
nothing is perfect-- nor can it ever be-- but Lojban leaves other
languages in the dust, since they do not even make the attempt.

The reason we need the goals formalized is to guide in clarifying rare
words and edge-cases. Given a set of choices on a specific issue,
these goals act like weights on a scale to influence the decision.

With that in mind, these goals will not cause the BPFK to dither
endlessly, trying to perfectly meet the goals; rather, the goals will
let the BPFK quickly resolve questions for which there are no answers,
the minimum necessary to settle on a release of Lojban version 5.

Goal #1 currently reads: "Lojban should be as logical (internally
consistent, semantically complete, ??? I don't really know how to
define this well) as possible".

My suggestion for goal #1 is as follows: "Minimize rule exceptions and
maximize how predictably the components combine." What did I miss?

-Eppcott


On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 10:05 PM, Kevin Reid <kpreid@mac.com> wrot= e:
> On Apr 5, 2010, at 20:56, =E7=99=BD=E6=9D=BE Oren wrote:
>
>> Mission: Full expressive freedom: Any meaning expressed in a n= atural
>> language can be expressed in Lojban, and at any desired level = of
>> ambiguity or precision.
>
>
> We are not interested in supporting ambiguity. We are interested i= n
> supporting vagueness.
>
> (Ambiguity is discrete; vagueness is continuous. Ambiguity means t= he
> listener has to choose among distinct and possibly very dissimilar= meanings;
> vagueness means the listener gets a broad but contiguous cluster. = Ambiguity,
> if possible in the language, has to be fixed by rewriting; vaguene= ss can be
> fixed by adding elements.)
>
> --
> Kevin Reid                =                  <http://s= witchb.org/kpreid/>
>
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
>

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@google= groups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lo= jban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
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