From 39866SwgJBswywB.69w5y4s03.u64361ts5y66y3wy96C7A.u64@groups.bounces.google.com Mon Apr 05 23:05:05 2010 Received: from mail-pz0-f139.google.com ([209.85.222.139]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <39866SwgJBswywB.69w5y4s03.u64361ts5y66y3wy96C7A.u64@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nz1uF-0002rX-NS for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 23:05:05 -0700 Received: by pzk3 with SMTP id 3sf79274pzk.28 for ; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 23:04:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:received:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=6mDUhAiE0Ue/cupI14oNKfT+h+aPo6L2tsOzzKVSX6M=; b=pCVP0Cpn81hZ5XT84vyDpv/61OEp/v4FoJfrBiShb2D/mgv/E1DS7mSm+UOclK8Hej aKP2GEia2DFnYzCcD93I5xPUA9yC4f5LnfWFgRHH4/4HulKo5KHf9oC2WByppAqZ11EY aHLwneDBhwg2pLLPXCmVvoKCO8QHZmvUruXiY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=D/Ab0U7YE3yenC8grGWu+e5kuY4Fsc0DwPvSnvIveWkj0UNlwDc0yYcfkuam7w9Vs/ eu7L4YAf0X+Ix1z4p3/HdYXH2ZU3YxjjpOSkdyGUgxdb9ZLbc9g2ptTc+LwE1BWUjYyB 1owpzVGFRps2+qZFvNTrpkxpebFZWjzM1LIkA= Received: by 10.142.247.9 with SMTP id u9mr185578wfh.5.1270533879032; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 23:04:39 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.250.36 with SMTP id x36ls1071822wfh.2.p; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 23:04:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.143.87.3 with SMTP id p3mr1079320wfl.16.1270533875339; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 23:04:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.143.87.3 with SMTP id p3mr1079317wfl.16.1270533875312; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 23:04:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pw0-f54.google.com (mail-pw0-f54.google.com [209.85.160.54]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 24si2774985pzk.9.2010.04.05.23.04.33; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 23:04:33 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.54 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.54; Received: by pwi9 with SMTP id 9so3766848pwi.13 for ; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 23:04:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.109.10 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 23:04:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4bbac268.6202be0a.7d04.ffffdb04@mx.google.com> References: <4bbac268.6202be0a.7d04.ffffdb04@mx.google.com> From: Oren Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 14:04:13 +0800 Received: by 10.142.8.13 with SMTP id 13mr2373417wfh.210.1270533873149; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 23:04:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] The proposed 'goals' of lojban To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.54 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=get.oren@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: get.oren@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/8c345f62e9f946ce X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/ba7ee310c9edca85 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm just attempting to purify the 'tie-breaker' hit-list, phrasing it as a linear programming problem would. Linear programming takes a function you wish to maximize and then applies a series of constraints. So the 'edge-cases' are the ones that find one or more possible eqivalent maxima-- for example: 'this way is more usable, but this way is how we've been doing it.' The point of ordering things strictly hierarchically, as proposed by Powell, is to prevent such 'local maxima' from having ties. And in my last email, I said the function to maximize is 'what can be said,' subject to Powell's constraints of remaining 1) logical 2) usable 3) unique 4) backwards-compatible see the content of my previous email for my suggested precise definitions. co'o mi'e korbi On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 13:10, Christopher Doty wrote= : > Man, I keep looking at you email... You're going to resolve questions tha= t > have no answers?? For the minimum necessary?? I'm not sure I parse, but i= f I > do... Wtf? > > Chris > > -- Sent from my Palm Pre > ________________________________ > On Apr 5, 2010 20:01, Matt Arnold wrote: > > I hope no one misunderstands, to think that Lojban does not already > meet the goals set down in the essay. It does meet them. Of course > nothing is perfect-- nor can it ever be-- but Lojban leaves other > languages in the dust, since they do not even make the attempt. > > The reason we need the goals formalized is to guide in clarifying rare > words and edge-cases. Given a set of choices on a specific issue, > these goals act like weights on a scale to influence the decision. > > With that in mind, these goals will not cause the BPFK to dither > endlessly, trying to perfectly meet the goals; rather, the goals will > let the BPFK quickly resolve questions for which there are no answers, > the minimum necessary to settle on a release of Lojban version 5. > > Goal #1 currently reads: "Lojban should be as logical (internally > consistent, semantically complete, ??? I don't really know how to > define this well) as possible". > > My suggestion for goal #1 is as follows: "Minimize rule exceptions and > maximize how predictably the components combine." What did I miss? > > -Eppcott > > > On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 10:05 PM, Kevin Reid wrote: >> On Apr 5, 2010, at 20:56, =E7=99=BD=E6=9D=BE Oren wrote: >> >>> Mission: Full expressive freedom: Any meaning expressed in a natural >>> language can be expressed in Lojban, and at any desired level of >>> ambiguity or precision. >> >> >> We are not interested in supporting ambiguity. We are interested in >> supporting vagueness. >> >> (Ambiguity is discrete; vagueness is continuous. Ambiguity means the >> listener has to choose among distinct and possibly very dissimilar >> meanings; >> vagueness means the listener gets a broad but contiguous cluster. >> Ambiguity, >> if possible in the language, has to be fixed by rewriting; vagueness can >> be >> fixed by adding elements.) >> >> -- >> Kevin Reid =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.