From 3b2m7SwkJBt8BOE.SPTUBHNBJM.DPNMPKCBOHPPHMFHSPVQT.DPN@groups.bounces.google.com Tue Apr 06 10:04:19 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f144.google.com ([209.85.210.144]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3b2m7SwkJBt8BOE.SPTUBHNBJM.DPNMPKCBOHPPHMFHSPVQT.DPN@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NzCC6-00049A-Nj for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 10:04:18 -0700 Received: by yxe8 with SMTP id 8sf35992yxe.25 for ; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 10:03:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=DqLqZAAwUD7fbYlqCr3YUqPiuxcuv5PvmBKAgi/3GwE=; b=rxLjwPCJpAe20fgkWteRX0q5wb3enA9gt00DRA9OCxZkFJjT8ORlhij/YJGqGYzksn Ilid9tDn5vTBpbnnf7Us0hjjKALZrH8s9y9NfHyTE/vax4uT0wAfljB5wIRprjTVtN6t jxsOkrCIaPBAMNX5RcsQWCwAneC1eJp2naxt4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Khhy558AZsgmOn0LVIqyXfIH5SgPyYmlh792sxHtT32slYtSG1/JpWG8ECuU/0LDxj dJRY7Du4kppIO7KMWaDRp92EoCyvozgccA9QtmJq1v/90F599XZvXywSzK1HBc2YIo/p r2j9i9ITEiGapS3Y/HrRAfFaSeSa0xmmtkM+s= Received: by 10.91.91.9 with SMTP id t9mr500694agl.20.1270573423065; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 10:03:43 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.35.68 with SMTP id o4ls2429464bkd.1.p; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 10:03:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.148.65 with SMTP id o1mr402501bkv.5.1270573419695; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 10:03:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.148.65 with SMTP id o1mr402500bkv.5.1270573419635; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 10:03:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.152]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 17si972657bwz.15.2010.04.06.10.03.38; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 10:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 72.14.220.152 as permitted sender) client-ip=72.14.220.152; Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 22so980868fge.11 for ; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 10:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.87.67.8 with SMTP id u8mr10503251fgk.9.1270573418112; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 10:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.67] (87-194-76-9.bethere.co.uk [87.194.76.9]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 4sm19146310fge.18.2010.04.06.10.03.36 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 06 Apr 2010 10:03:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4BBB6967.2010108@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 18:03:35 +0100 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] The proposed 'goals' of lojban References: In-Reply-To: X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 72.14.220.152 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/8c345f62e9f946ce X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/6777f1f7a7a5928e Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Korbi (=E7=99=BD=E6=9D=BE Oren) writes: > http://teddyb.org/robin/tiki-index.php?page=3DLojban:+You're+Doing+It+Wro= ng > Rephrased: > * Lojban should be Logical > * Lojban should be a Language [...] > "logical" means no exceptions to rules, and no ambiguous syntax. > "language" means it should be effective in human communication > (clear*, brief and simple) & Matt Arnold writes: > I hope no one misunderstands, to think that Lojban does not already > meet the goals set down in the essay. It does meet them. Of course > nothing is perfect-- nor can it ever be-- but Lojban leaves other > languages in the dust, since they do not even make the attempt. Lojban could certainly be tidied up a lot, by a more muscular BPFK, by a sc= heme such as Robin proposes, or by -- as I would haha-only-serious-ly advoc= ate -- Jorge being given the cathedra and its powers of fiat; and so like o= thers I support Robin's new initiative. But the only way to really reconcil= e the "logical" and "language" goals would be to start the language from sc= ratch all over again. Such a starting all over again could be done under th= e aegis of the Loglan--Lojban project -- John Clifford calls such a third-g= eneration Loglan/Lojban 'LoCCan3' -- but it would be perverse to call LoCCa= n3 'Lojban'.=20 Matt is right that Lojban leaves "other languages" in the dust only if "oth= er languages" include only those with a community of users. From a design p= erspective, it would nowadays be extremely simple to effect enormous improv= ements on Lojban's design; and the starting from scratch would not in itsel= f entail much new labour. The real challenges for LoCCan3 would be in reach= ing consensus on a design and in the very difficult search for a design tha= t satisfies the "language" requirements (essentially, the amount of logical= form expressed per syllable) enough to make the language better than natur= al language for general-purpose use.[*] So, IMO, changes to *Lojban* should be confined to regularizations, simplif= ications (e.g. eradication of certain cmavo or selma'o) and specifications = of semantic interpretation. You can relax the requirement of backwards-comp= atibility somewhat, but if you completely subjugate it to the Logic and Lan= guage goals, you'd end up starting again from scratch and producing LoCCan3= . (And to repeat, LoCCan3 would be an immensely better language, but would = not be Lojban.) [* As I see it, the design problem has two parts. Both have to do with find= ing ways to logically precise meanings concise enough to be worth the effor= t of verbalizing. One part is to find a more concise way of of encoding var= iables than standard predicate logic notation and Lojban offer, given that = in most propositions we express (in natural language) there are many variab= les and each variable tends to be argument of many predicates. The other pa= rt is to devise an inventory of predicates that expand to more complex logi= cal structures.] --And. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.