From 3CNu7SwgJBuoSQf.adQZSYMUX.OaYXaVNMZSaaSXQSdagbe.OaY@groups.bounces.google.com Tue Apr 06 18:08:51 2010 Received: from mail-pz0-f139.google.com ([209.85.222.139]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3CNu7SwgJBuoSQf.adQZSYMUX.OaYXaVNMZSaaSXQSdagbe.OaY@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NzJl7-0007Ap-TE for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 18:08:50 -0700 Received: by pzk3 with SMTP id 3sf119667pzk.28 for ; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 18:08:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:received:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=x56i/gXMZatD+RKu6UDCAV/gScUGL011TAYgBYXNdLU=; b=zH4bb96J5q4vJqA11Aa275hv6Xl0tXkiD0TMA7qn0q5QkvpMSjWZHqa8+pdMb5pzk4 hDrNbxiuq3A83d8tys4CzVH3/jlUAHr72h2EoS+J8Z22G3D+NWu6RsmZSqTy4zi1gbNQ 9xssMPn3Mdpfasm/Sk8R6VIDK/zU5W4Yfq0yU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=5YArJeOFX095mEiEnEqLYvktdEuxOjN8qft6VKHzr3iaKdY7DD8gy+++ydSuqVVwzM UiLgFvrGxelf6q1FEF3rcTox+M2ULJHzyXF9zRDGIQpxJ8tkvDoTaJ9YCCtbP911M9iK jUK4/f2RMVbm/NpKFHU5kkMZ16EkWrJZOeEOI= Received: by 10.115.101.12 with SMTP id d12mr528320wam.16.1270602504795; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 18:08:24 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.115.38.17 with SMTP id q17ls1785042waj.0.p; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 18:08:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.18.23 with SMTP id 23mr1604793war.14.1270602502534; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 18:08:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.18.23 with SMTP id 23mr1604791war.14.1270602502463; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 18:08:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pz0-f184.google.com (mail-pz0-f184.google.com [209.85.222.184]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si2971700pzk.2.2010.04.06.18.08.21; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 18:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.222.184 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.222.184; Received: by pzk14 with SMTP id 14so519241pzk.8 for ; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 18:08:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.109.10 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 18:08:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4BBB6967.2010108@gmail.com> References: <4BBB6967.2010108@gmail.com> From: Oren Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 09:08:01 +0800 Received: by 10.142.202.7 with SMTP id z7mr3127367wff.267.1270602501164; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 18:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] The proposed 'goals' of lojban To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.222.184 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=get.oren@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: get.oren@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/8c345f62e9f946ce X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/726b4b0d5eccfa82 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd32dc8bb8e7004839b32c2 --000e0cd32dc8bb8e7004839b32c2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So then... Baselined Lojban =3D Perl Cleaned-up Lojban =3D Perl 6 Hypothetical LoCCan3 =3D Lisp On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 01:03, And Rosta wrote: > Korbi (=E7=99=BD=E6=9D=BE Oren) writes: > >> http://teddyb.org/robin/tiki-index.php?page=3DLojban:+You're+Doing+It+Wr= ong >> Rephrased: >> * Lojban should be Logical >> * Lojban should be a Language >> > [...] > > "logical" means no exceptions to rules, and no ambiguous syntax. >> "language" means it should be effective in human communication >> (clear*, brief and simple) >> > > & Matt Arnold writes: > >> I hope no one misunderstands, to think that Lojban does not already >> meet the goals set down in the essay. It does meet them. Of course >> nothing is perfect-- nor can it ever be-- but Lojban leaves other >> languages in the dust, since they do not even make the attempt. >> > > Lojban could certainly be tidied up a lot, by a more muscular BPFK, by a > scheme such as Robin proposes, or by -- as I would haha-only-serious-ly > advocate -- Jorge being given the cathedra and its powers of fiat; and so > like others I support Robin's new initiative. But the only way to really > reconcile the "logical" and "language" goals would be to start the langua= ge > from scratch all over again. Such a starting all over again could be done > under the aegis of the Loglan--Lojban project -- John Clifford calls such= a > third-generation Loglan/Lojban 'LoCCan3' -- but it would be perverse to c= all > LoCCan3 'Lojban'. > Matt is right that Lojban leaves "other languages" in the dust only if > "other languages" include only those with a community of users. From a > design perspective, it would nowadays be extremely simple to effect enorm= ous > improvements on Lojban's design; and the starting from scratch would not = in > itself entail much new labour. The real challenges for LoCCan3 would be i= n > reaching consensus on a design and in the very difficult search for a des= ign > that satisfies the "language" requirements (essentially, the amount of > logical form expressed per syllable) enough to make the language better t= han > natural language for general-purpose use.[*] > > So, IMO, changes to *Lojban* should be confined to regularizations, > simplifications (e.g. eradication of certain cmavo or selma'o) and > specifications of semantic interpretation. You can relax the requirement = of > backwards-compatibility somewhat, but if you completely subjugate it to t= he > Logic and Language goals, you'd end up starting again from scratch and > producing LoCCan3. (And to repeat, LoCCan3 would be an immensely better > language, but would not be Lojban.) > > [* As I see it, the design problem has two parts. Both have to do with > finding ways to logically precise meanings concise enough to be worth the > effort of verbalizing. One part is to find a more concise way of of encod= ing > variables than standard predicate logic notation and Lojban offer, given > that in most propositions we express (in natural language) there are many > variables and each variable tends to be argument of many predicates. The > other part is to devise an inventory of predicates that expand to more > complex logical structures.] > > --And. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --000e0cd32dc8bb8e7004839b32c2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
So then...

Baselined Lojban =3D Perl
Cleaned-up Lojban =3D Perl 6
Hypothetical LoCCan3 =3D Lis= p

On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 01:03, An= d Rosta <and.ro= sta@gmail.com> wrote:
Korbi (=E7=99=BD=E6=9D=BE= Oren) writes:
http://teddyb.org/robin/tiki-index.php?p= age=3DLojban:+You're+Doing+It+Wrong
Rephrased:
* Lojban should be Logical
* Lojban should be a Language
[...]

"logical" means no exceptions to rules, and no ambiguous syntax.<= br> "language" means it should be effective in human communication (clear*, brief and simple)

& Matt Arnold writes:
I hope no one misunderstands, to think that Lojban does not already
meet the goals set down in the essay. It does meet them. Of course
nothing is perfect-- nor can it ever be-- but Lojban leaves other
languages in the dust, since they do not even make the attempt.

Lojban could certainly be tidied up a lot, by a more muscular BPFK, by a sc= heme such as Robin proposes, or by -- as I would haha-only-serious-ly advoc= ate -- Jorge being given the cathedra and its powers of fiat; and so like o= thers I support Robin's new initiative. But the only way to really reco= ncile the "logical" and "language" goals would be to st= art the language from scratch all over again. Such a starting all over agai= n could be done under the aegis of the Loglan--Lojban project -- John Cliff= ord calls such a third-generation Loglan/Lojban 'LoCCan3' -- but it= would be perverse to call LoCCan3 'Lojban'.
Matt is right that Lojban leaves "other languages" in the dust on= ly if "other languages" include only those with a community of us= ers. From a design perspective, it would nowadays be extremely simple to ef= fect enormous improvements on Lojban's design; and the starting from sc= ratch would not in itself entail much new labour. The real challenges for L= oCCan3 would be in reaching consensus on a design and in the very difficult= search for a design that satisfies the "language" requirements (= essentially, the amount of logical form expressed per syllable) enough to m= ake the language better than natural language for general-purpose use.[*]
So, IMO, changes to *Lojban* should be confined to regularizations, simplif= ications (e.g. eradication of certain cmavo or selma'o) and specificati= ons of semantic interpretation. You can relax the requirement of backwards-= compatibility somewhat, but if you completely subjugate it to the Logic and= Language goals, you'd end up starting again from scratch and producing= LoCCan3. (And to repeat, LoCCan3 would be an immensely better language, bu= t would not be Lojban.)

[* As I see it, the design problem has two parts. Both have to do with find= ing ways to logically precise meanings concise enough to be worth the effor= t of verbalizing. One part is to find a more concise way of of encoding var= iables than standard predicate logic notation and Lojban offer, given that = in most propositions we express (in natural language) there are many variab= les and each variable tends to be argument of many predicates. The other pa= rt is to devise an inventory of predicates that expand to more complex logi= cal structures.]

--And.


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