From 3f9y7SwcJBmMFZFPOVTHNBJM.DPNMPKCBOHPPHMFHSPVQT.DPN@groups.bounces.google.com Tue Apr 06 18:15:06 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f160.google.com ([209.85.211.160]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3f9y7SwcJBmMFZFPOVTHNBJM.DPNMPKCBOHPPHMFHSPVQT.DPN@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NzJrB-0007RF-Hs for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 18:15:06 -0700 Received: by ywh32 with SMTP id 32sf195304ywh.28 for ; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 18:14:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=5Qf3qbp5hniPAh45HhgwYeTkl/tOYYPZsetWaP02oOo=; b=0buQ+xoJM7DTYFuMg17nhpCtUor1pDb9ronYqda1pGY9jUDGMNI/Uti62oL9Z6gmHE TJSgxCyYewiaCVnNycGGm+/sKLarB++aSyuMaDYlPE/3GQPAy/dWdHkRlzueET0UTwq7 WaaWJyzSm+BrVzY9to8XL2YgJMMZUsIKfISeM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=crIuY4YsfJoteoaDGNJps3q5BgEKqkc1iwb0ssHfGy1pHEjb+P6P9W1Fd4jc1tYjP6 FEYSs0ctKx0qO9DbtP02BFnDKR7jsV6ctiZSyi+m/DNjX3MHBGaN7KHU2sKv59bnqui4 9017cOCB1oKUGWAnSG19d8UJ5u+QQTZ0I+1Xs= Received: by 10.91.182.17 with SMTP id j17mr575070agp.31.1270602879682; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 18:14:39 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.223.36.203 with SMTP id u11ls765663fad.2.p; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 18:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.59.151 with SMTP id l23mr606851fah.28.1270602877838; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 18:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.59.151 with SMTP id l23mr606850fah.28.1270602877781; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 18:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f220.google.com (mail-bw0-f220.google.com [209.85.218.220]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si1102997fxm.9.2010.04.06.18.14.36; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 18:14:36 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.220 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.218.220; Received: by bwz20 with SMTP id 20so551234bwz.32 for ; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 18:14:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.101.82 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 18:14:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4BBB6967.2010108@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 19:14:36 -0600 Received: by 10.204.136.142 with SMTP id r14mr8949029bkt.8.1270602876184; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 18:14:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] The proposed 'goals' of lojban From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.220 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/8c345f62e9f946ce X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/9822e1e4c8d89703 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c41ea15ea1204839b4924 --0015174c41ea15ea1204839b4924 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable lol On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 7:08 PM, Oren wrote: > So then... > > Baselined Lojban =3D Perl > Cleaned-up Lojban =3D Perl 6 > Hypothetical LoCCan3 =3D Lisp > > On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 01:03, And Rosta wrote: > >> Korbi (=E7=99=BD=E6=9D=BE Oren) writes: >> >>> http://teddyb.org/robin/tiki-index.php?page=3DLojban:+You're+Doing+It+W= rong >>> Rephrased: >>> * Lojban should be Logical >>> * Lojban should be a Language >>> >> [...] >> >> "logical" means no exceptions to rules, and no ambiguous syntax. >>> "language" means it should be effective in human communication >>> (clear*, brief and simple) >>> >> >> & Matt Arnold writes: >> >>> I hope no one misunderstands, to think that Lojban does not already >>> meet the goals set down in the essay. It does meet them. Of course >>> nothing is perfect-- nor can it ever be-- but Lojban leaves other >>> languages in the dust, since they do not even make the attempt. >>> >> >> Lojban could certainly be tidied up a lot, by a more muscular BPFK, by a >> scheme such as Robin proposes, or by -- as I would haha-only-serious-ly >> advocate -- Jorge being given the cathedra and its powers of fiat; and s= o >> like others I support Robin's new initiative. But the only way to really >> reconcile the "logical" and "language" goals would be to start the langu= age >> from scratch all over again. Such a starting all over again could be don= e >> under the aegis of the Loglan--Lojban project -- John Clifford calls suc= h a >> third-generation Loglan/Lojban 'LoCCan3' -- but it would be perverse to = call >> LoCCan3 'Lojban'. >> Matt is right that Lojban leaves "other languages" in the dust only if >> "other languages" include only those with a community of users. From a >> design perspective, it would nowadays be extremely simple to effect enor= mous >> improvements on Lojban's design; and the starting from scratch would not= in >> itself entail much new labour. The real challenges for LoCCan3 would be = in >> reaching consensus on a design and in the very difficult search for a de= sign >> that satisfies the "language" requirements (essentially, the amount of >> logical form expressed per syllable) enough to make the language better = than >> natural language for general-purpose use.[*] >> >> So, IMO, changes to *Lojban* should be confined to regularizations, >> simplifications (e.g. eradication of certain cmavo or selma'o) and >> specifications of semantic interpretation. You can relax the requirement= of >> backwards-compatibility somewhat, but if you completely subjugate it to = the >> Logic and Language goals, you'd end up starting again from scratch and >> producing LoCCan3. (And to repeat, LoCCan3 would be an immensely better >> language, but would not be Lojban.) >> >> [* As I see it, the design problem has two parts. Both have to do with >> finding ways to logically precise meanings concise enough to be worth th= e >> effort of verbalizing. One part is to find a more concise way of of enco= ding >> variables than standard predicate logic notation and Lojban offer, given >> that in most propositions we express (in natural language) there are man= y >> variables and each variable tends to be argument of many predicates. The >> other part is to devise an inventory of predicates that expand to more >> complex logical structures.] >> >> --And. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0015174c41ea15ea1204839b4924 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable lol

On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 7:08 PM, Oren = <get.oren@gmail.= com> wrote:
So then...

Baselined Lojban =3D Perl
Cleaned-up Lojban =3D Perl 6
Hypothetical LoCCan3 =3D Lis= p

On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 01:03, And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com> wrote:
Korbi (=E7= =99=BD=E6=9D=BE Oren) writes:
http://teddyb.org/robin/tiki-index.php?pag= e=3DLojban:+You're+Doing+It+Wrong
Rephrased:
* Lojban should be Logical
* Lojban should be a Language
[...]

"logical" means no exceptions to rules, and no ambiguous syntax.<= br> "language" means it should be effective in human communication (clear*, brief and simple)

& Matt Arnold writes:
I hope no one misunderstands, to think that Lojban does not already
meet the goals set down in the essay. It does meet them. Of course
nothing is perfect-- nor can it ever be-- but Lojban leaves other
languages in the dust, since they do not even make the attempt.

Lojban could certainly be tidied up a lot, by a more muscular BPFK, by a sc= heme such as Robin proposes, or by -- as I would haha-only-serious-ly advoc= ate -- Jorge being given the cathedra and its powers of fiat; and so like o= thers I support Robin's new initiative. But the only way to really reco= ncile the "logical" and "language" goals would be to st= art the language from scratch all over again. Such a starting all over agai= n could be done under the aegis of the Loglan--Lojban project -- John Cliff= ord calls such a third-generation Loglan/Lojban 'LoCCan3' -- but it= would be perverse to call LoCCan3 'Lojban'.
Matt is right that Lojban leaves "other languages" in the dust on= ly if "other languages" include only those with a community of us= ers. From a design perspective, it would nowadays be extremely simple to ef= fect enormous improvements on Lojban's design; and the starting from sc= ratch would not in itself entail much new labour. The real challenges for L= oCCan3 would be in reaching consensus on a design and in the very difficult= search for a design that satisfies the "language" requirements (= essentially, the amount of logical form expressed per syllable) enough to m= ake the language better than natural language for general-purpose use.[*]
So, IMO, changes to *Lojban* should be confined to regularizations, simplif= ications (e.g. eradication of certain cmavo or selma'o) and specificati= ons of semantic interpretation. You can relax the requirement of backwards-= compatibility somewhat, but if you completely subjugate it to the Logic and= Language goals, you'd end up starting again from scratch and producing= LoCCan3. (And to repeat, LoCCan3 would be an immensely better language, bu= t would not be Lojban.)

[* As I see it, the design problem has two parts. Both have to do with find= ing ways to logically precise meanings concise enough to be worth the effor= t of verbalizing. One part is to find a more concise way of of encoding var= iables than standard predicate logic notation and Lojban offer, given that = in most propositions we express (in natural language) there are many variab= les and each variable tends to be argument of many predicates. The other pa= rt is to devise an inventory of predicates that expand to more complex logi= cal structures.]

--And.


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=

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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu
=

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