From 3mSq8SwgJBssxvA.58v4x3rz2.t53250sr4x55x2vx85B69.t53@groups.bounces.google.com Tue Apr 06 23:48:18 2010 Received: from mail-pv0-f189.google.com ([74.125.83.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3mSq8SwgJBssxvA.58v4x3rz2.t53250sr4x55x2vx85B69.t53@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NzP3d-0006o9-ER for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 23:48:17 -0700 Received: by pvb32 with SMTP id 32sf79163pvb.16 for ; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 23:48:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:received:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=h8MfBFEidA5DD4oDYxd/qWTPKirdPDqh0hAa/6KOzc8=; b=Ax5O2HT8SuPs8heiF001KW/vA5jaUd33MKtyL4nj173agxfiNw1BzxYgAEGt0HDJYO le75UVy9m6FuuJ/36K2Gi6xm1/YrQz7JwAJ3qt3tUVnZGGP29LY9JFaZoHfsSopPuMcj duEYwGHS3viRZTol+/qhx6REtanXLoUhLPszM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=OerLZzCchRg7bQuaVVeK1ueYBm5ebsAp4jJeJ9qkyKYgexupq3D+7DQ5GX75HYuDYN i5Puvy/pHZ5+d4sykwHvPHgiZmKPkMujUz0ip5z7s2doFZwveXsJL4ui+Yplm/i2o+ey TGF5nQiMKkBe3axezwKeJTUIMzAbTW4tImBWg= Received: by 10.115.100.27 with SMTP id c27mr553202wam.18.1270622873437; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 23:47:53 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.114.250.4 with SMTP id x4ls1572362wah.3.p; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 23:47:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.18.23 with SMTP id 23mr1659056war.14.1270622871538; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 23:47:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.18.23 with SMTP id 23mr1659055war.14.1270622871466; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 23:47:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pw0-f43.google.com (mail-pw0-f43.google.com [209.85.160.43]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si3024467pzk.14.2010.04.06.23.47.50; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 23:47:50 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.43 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.43; Received: by pwj6 with SMTP id 6so958762pwj.2 for ; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 23:47:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.109.10 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 23:47:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20100407052802.GI21843@digitalkingdom.org> References: <00c09f76ad870c0d9e04839b81ae@google.com> <20100407052802.GI21843@digitalkingdom.org> From: Oren Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 14:47:29 +0800 Received: by 10.142.210.21 with SMTP id i21mr3106429wfg.16.1270622870273; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 23:47:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Tangent: Is there a better grammar? To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.43 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=get.oren@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: get.oren@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/6d4e31b897cbe4b1 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/20fa057be84d3f5f Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd32ee8d3811404839ff0e8 --000e0cd32ee8d3811404839ff0e8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Correct me if I'm mistaken, but guaspi appears to have a comparable vocabulary size, and merely replaces sumti markup with a tonally-modified cases; that is, it doesn't seem to radically deviate from lojban's predicate logic foundation, nor make great gains in brevity/simplicity-- the author claims length is "comparable to english" where I always thought that lojban was briefer than English. On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 13:28, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > http://www.math.ucla.edu/~jimc/guaspi/ > > -Robin > > On Wed, Apr 07, 2010 at 01:30:15AM +0000, GFBeresford@gmail.com > wrote: > > I know *someone* tried to make a language similar to lojban using > > the asian tonal system. This would certainly allow shorter > > utterances, since there are WAY more one-syllable sounds > > available... though it isn't really an improved grammar, just a > > different alphabet... > > > > > > > > On Apr 7, 2010 2:14am, Oren wrote: > > >On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 01:03, And Rosta and.rosta@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > >[* As I see it, the design problem has two parts. Both have to do > > >with finding ways to logically precise meanings concise enough to > > >be worth the effort of verbalizing. One part is to find a more > > >concise way of of encoding variables than standard predicate logic > > >notation and Lojban offer, given that in most propositions we > > >express (in natural language) there are many variables and each > > >variable tends to be argument of many predicates. The other part > > >is to devise an inventory of predicates that expand to more > > >complex logical structures.] > > > > > > > > >I don't really see your case here; if one of the basic goals is to > > >be a useful human language, then I don't see any alternative to > > >predicate logic as two-dimensional representation of utterances. > > >Or, if there was one. it would seem inherently illogical due to > > >it's complexity. Could you (or anyone) expand this thought? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > > > >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > >Groups "lojban" group. > > > > >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > >lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > > > > > >For more options, visit this group at > > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > -- > They say: "The first AIs will be built by the military as weapons." > And I'm thinking: "Does it even occur to you to try for something > other than the default outcome?" See http://shrunklink.com/cdiz > http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --000e0cd32ee8d3811404839ff0e8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but guaspi appears to have= a comparable vocabulary size, and merely replaces sumti markup with a tona= lly-modified cases; that is, it doesn't seem to radically deviate from = lojban's predicate logic foundation, nor make great gains in brevity/si= mplicity-- the author claims length is "comparable to english" wh= ere I always thought that lojban was briefer than English.=A0

On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 13:28, Robin Lee Powe= ll <rlp= owell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
http:/= /www.math.ucla.edu/~jimc/guaspi/

-Robin

On Wed, Apr 07, 2010 at 01:30:15AM +0000, GFBeresford@gmail.com
wrote:
> I know *someone* tried to make a lan= guage similar to lojban using
> the asian tonal system. This would certainly allow shorter
> utterances, since there are WAY more one-syllable sounds
> available... though it isn't really an improved grammar, just a > different alphabet...
>
>
>
> On Apr 7, 2010 2:14am, Oren <= get.oren@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 01:03, And Rosta and.rosta@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> >[* As I see it, the design problem has two parts. Both have to do<= br> > >with finding ways to logically precise meanings concise enough to<= br> > >be worth the effort of verbalizing. One part is to find a more
> >concise way of of encoding variables than standard predicate logic=
> >notation and Lojban offer, given that in most propositions we
> >express (in natural language) there are many variables and each > >variable tends to be argument of many predicates. The other part > >is to devise an inventory of predicates that expand to more
> >complex logical structures.]
>
>
>
> >I don't really see your case here; if one of the basic goals i= s to
> >be a useful human language, then I don't see any alternative t= o
> >predicate logic as two-dimensional representation of utterances. > >Or, if there was one. it would seem inherently illogical due to > >it's complexity. Could you (or anyone) expand this thought? >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >--
>
> >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google=
> >Groups "lojban" group.
>
> >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>
> >To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >lojban+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
>
>
> >For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/= lojban?hl=3Den.
>

--
They say: =A0"The first AIs will be built by the military as weapons.&= quot;
And I'm =A0thinking: =A0"Does it even occur to you to try for some= thing
other =A0than =A0the default =A0outcome?" =A0See http://shrunklink.com/cdiz
http= ://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/

--
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To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.


--
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