From 3qre8SwoJBmoacWUQKPZQaOUIQT.KWUTWRJIVOWWOTMOZWcXa.KWU@groups.bounces.google.com Wed Apr 07 09:50:24 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f160.google.com ([209.85.211.160]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3qre8SwoJBmoacWUQKPZQaOUIQT.KWUTWRJIVOWWOTMOZWcXa.KWU@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NzYS7-0004Jj-TR for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 09:50:20 -0700 Received: by ywh32 with SMTP id 32sf538223ywh.28 for ; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 09:50:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=8BP+gVoEHn78S/QkjFIovWuwwE6+ulqTeyKrArQ7oNU=; b=V63vReVF8/gTh0xRGskTHxcCrCC8cKSnIs5wYSIJLVno+eN1FX+fU6vIS7sjfuXJlt Cx+3IXu1v37Kxd4Ina+lEPYliFGefky/Wb/zjEg+jg3jXGmnDG9dV0H75ccUqKA2zBym xz9INnklJkuliYX/+aVGMyUG2r4oCyInYYOeQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=5BJwwRMyIQ6Z4nzoQKRJOBctnsqy8d37k5w3G2TUiIgpzxGTLqp3ZlpF2u6/0uCGXA IZYtLsrqg+JE0g1RXiZsrb60Im0edp4AptHFE4fs4gkZESsxkc3aqBaQxwPNodU16TYS G3aQl3aGPMrliebziYCcw9UvCG5JgvdK8lpHg= Received: by 10.150.168.5 with SMTP id q5mr348086ybe.37.1270658986665; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 09:49:46 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.203.14 with SMTP id f14ls1378151anq.0.p; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 09:49:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.24.21 with SMTP id 21mr2609100anx.27.1270658984782; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 09:49:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.24.21 with SMTP id 21mr2609098anx.27.1270658984749; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 09:49:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-f186.google.com (mail-yw0-f186.google.com [209.85.211.186]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si1297670gxk.7.2010.04.07.09.49.43; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 09:49:43 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.211.186 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.211.186; Received: by ywh16 with SMTP id 16so632375ywh.0 for ; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 09:49:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.5.20 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 09:49:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20100407164040.GB11541@digitalkingdom.org> References: <0014852d325d4f68180483a09bbd@google.com> <36CEEED1-6104-4AD4-A64A-F58592CCBA56@gmail.com> <20100407164040.GB11541@digitalkingdom.org> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 09:49:42 -0700 Received: by 10.101.21.13 with SMTP id y13mr15116681ani.210.1270658982851; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 09:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] Tangent: Is there a better grammar? From: Christopher Doty To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.211.186 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=suomichris@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: suomichris@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/6d4e31b897cbe4b1 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/49c45cfe022bfb6b Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The number of words is certainly helpful, but isn't the whole story. As Robin points out, there would be a lot of emotives and things in Lojban which are not usually written in English, as they're largely associated with intonation. So, the Lojban might be longer, but it likely carries more information about speaker attitude and such than the English. Which is to say, it (probably) has higher information density. Chris On Wednesday, April 7, 2010, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > On Wed, Apr 07, 2010 at 09:42:12AM +0100, Michael Everson wrote: >> On 7 Apr 2010, at 08:35, GFBeresford@gmail.com wrote: >> >> > Does anyone know if lojban texts have statistically more/less >> > syllables than their english/natural language equivalents? I >> > suppose to be truly fair, those stats might need to include >> > texts composed in lojban and then translated into english as >> > well... >> >> Alice's Adventures in Wonderland: >> >> Lojban (raw text taken from PDF, table of contents removed, no punctuati= on) >> 31,727 words >> 112,238 characters (no spaces) >> 144,018 characters (with spaces) >> >> English (table of contents removed, normal punctuation) >> 26,519 words >> 115,922 characters (no spaces) >> 141,867 characters (with spaces) >> >> Irish (table of contents removed, normal punctuation) >> 30,498 words >> 132,311 characters (no spaces) >> 162,173 characters (with spaces) >> >> I leave it for the numerate to determine whether this data is of >> any use in terms of the question. > > IME, Lojban is noticeably more verbose (in terms of syllable) than > English, and less so than Formal Japanese. =A0Lojban and Japanese > handle this problem in the same way: by saying less, and leaving > things to context. > > Shoulson and I have argued that a native Lojbanist would have UI as > 75+% of their utterances. =A0:) > > -Robin > > -- > They say: =A0"The first AIs will be built by the military as weapons." > And I'm =A0thinking: =A0"Does it even occur to you to try for something > other =A0than =A0the default =A0outcome?" =A0See http://shrunklink.com/cd= iz > http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. 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