From 3uLm8SwgSBnopjnmucjjbgegrYjiglebmk.mpejmhZYlemmejcepmsnq.amk@groups.bounces.google.com Wed Apr 07 09:58:58 2010 Received: from mail-pv0-f189.google.com ([74.125.83.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3uLm8SwgSBnopjnmucjjbgegrYjiglebmk.mpejmhZYlemmejcepmsnq.amk@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NzYab-00053x-5i for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 09:58:58 -0700 Received: by pvb32 with SMTP id 32sf249533pvb.16 for ; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 09:58:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:received:date:from :to:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:references:mime-version :in-reply-to:user-agent:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition; bh=LSE/nwIqh9XqVBMQV5xjBdBDRBY3u8kzqXP2nTT1hWE=; b=Ci9EAV0nBmLnAMO3eRBN4pWkhoiL5XX9wCSCww8OyiMb6x3In1AmgwdiktKnga63Uy hPRKCC8HG0rUL21OXixSShqU4QJcTRDss+LdMSRdAq5kOLa+tWmEv2ehW7QnzoJnoLCo McZzz3GsNwSzhvnI7bHpgMLF0eFUy93PxdV18= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-disposition; b=Xe5l2DI1eEyfNtERhkRlXI3RRYFc+HH4nnzM0IDz1wnXa6waBkJ1iPa7eHR6m3Hz59 gDAh8Z0CSVR30IxWx0HKTx8pSepPh/48QyqzauWFDyyEXurkKxIgtx2zaJy830Q7Z0Ec BXie8uNirCvgaPwV8Yg/POL9XXieu7CRynM+8= Received: by 10.114.70.14 with SMTP id s14mr620513waa.22.1270659512782; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 09:58:32 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.115.135.31 with SMTP id m31ls1050957wan.1.p; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 09:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.115.67.6 with SMTP id u6mr1798253wak.21.1270659511041; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 09:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.115.67.6 with SMTP id u6mr1798252wak.21.1270659511014; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 09:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail6.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail6.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.8]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si3101139pzk.10.2010.04.07.09.58.30; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 09:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 69.17.117.8 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of nobody@digitalkingdom.org) client-ip=69.17.117.8; Received: (qmail 18358 invoked from network); 7 Apr 2010 16:58:30 -0000 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) (envelope-sender ) by mail6.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 7 Apr 2010 16:58:30 -0000 Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NzYaC-00053k-T9 for lojban@googlegroups.com; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 09:58:29 -0700 Received: from rlpowell by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NzYaC-00053d-LR for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 09:58:28 -0700 Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 09:58:28 -0700 From: Robin Lee Powell To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: Re: [lojban] [lojban-announcements] Essay on the future of Lojban, with a simple poll for the community. Message-ID: <20100407165828.GD11541@digitalkingdom.org> Mail-Followup-To: lojban-list@lojban.org References: <20100405210225.GW6084@digitalkingdom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20100405210225.GW6084@digitalkingdom.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 69.17.117.8 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of nobody@digitalkingdom.org) smtp.mail=nobody@digitalkingdom.org X-Original-Sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/c67f210addc06a0c X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/352e88c2d638335e Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline This is from And Rosta, in response to both my essay and in particular me showing him the email I quote at the top: Thanks -- for drawing my attention to your very interesting essay & for drawing my attention to my old message. I guess that if the views expressed in your essay had held sway back when I was involved with Lojban, I would have stayed involved (at least when the demands of Real Life allowed). When it comes to matters of linguistic analysis and insight and the like, Xorxes's is the smartest mind I've encountered outside the world of professional linguistics. He also has extraordinary patience and perseverance and good humour. My thinking was/is: A. Your #1 and #2 goals were paramount: the language should be capable of expressing desired meanings unambiguously, and without so much effort that the cost of the effort outweighs the benefit of the clarity of expression. B. It would be a real benefit for the world for this language to exist and seriously be usable for real-world stuff (such as legislative language). C. To create the language you'd need a team -- too much work for one person, and the job would need many eyes. D. With the benefit of hindsight, and learning from the Lojban experience, the best way to achieve (A) would be to start from scratch. (Lojban grammar is needlessly complicated, and the design of its grammar and of its morphology makes it impossible to get it down to an acceptable level of conciseness.) (B) & (C) were in conflict with (D). So I both worked for Lojban and thought about how to best to do (A). Eventually it became clear to me not only that (A) was not going to happen to Lojban but also that the very attempt to turn Lojban into an (A)-type language was upsetting people with just as much of a stake and investment in Lojban as I had. So I withdrew, and straightaway my levels of free time rose and my levels of stress fell (tho Life soon reversed those changes!). It would be great news if at long last Lojban could officially follow your manifesto, which in practice would amount to incorporating the changes Xorxes would make to it. That would at least make Lojban as good as it could ever be. Keep me posted on developments -- I'm still interested in it all, even though I have much less time than I once upon a time did. -Robin -- They say: "The first AIs will be built by the military as weapons." And I'm thinking: "Does it even occur to you to try for something other than the default outcome?" See http://shrunklink.com/cdiz http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.