From 3Nbq8SwkJBvcZmc.qnrsZflZhk.bnlkniaZmfnnfkdfqntor.bnl@groups.bounces.google.com Wed Apr 07 10:01:08 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3Nbq8SwkJBvcZmc.qnrsZflZhk.bnlkniaZmfnnfkdfqntor.bnl@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NzYcg-0005IH-5j for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 10:01:08 -0700 Received: by gyd5 with SMTP id 5sf608389gyd.16 for ; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 10:00:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=eO5LTSisDkGmvtISbFveAAXgk0Mxl5p/OilcjPF+l74=; b=t0y3r4PRfh+TZASzKhlUSpD+KdMw0oBzNiLsGxRDoy0FfJOqDiJ90E/t62NmzpR6qf zKijGyYTFUzbz8MRGLqIRmuJDWJHlfKl3XJa3qNfoJs0try4k7a+Jp9RswIaLJ8eoBAO QBXTrd4NB8a5L1/LC3Vkr2adh6ShfLBfaJ7eU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=3kO8bKDl2klDww9bTRzyr5lSuv85hAQiSkdldUWKT1mNKxFB9HIn4BdrJryydRO8/U LCz4UTA+E5o2II4w8dSX+5MhkyYm98jw2Z5w2rT0Si4owPqhb0d25X5Bh0ErFuP8PZIx z3W3Hg8x3qSbSyZRdlltpyOwzyeup20EamC04= Received: by 10.91.121.9 with SMTP id y9mr735724agm.3.1270659637889; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 10:00:37 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.223.32.71 with SMTP id b7ls1925677fad.0.p; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 10:00:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.64.79 with SMTP id d15mr712144fai.3.1270659635114; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 10:00:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.64.79 with SMTP id d15mr712143fai.3.1270659635064; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 10:00:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f222.google.com (mail-bw0-f222.google.com [209.85.218.222]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 11si1175620fxm.14.2010.04.07.10.00.33; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 10:00:34 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.222 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.218.222; Received: by mail-bw0-f222.google.com with SMTP id 22so1043067bwz.5 for ; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 10:00:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.151.71 with SMTP id b7mr10069177bkw.114.1270659633196; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 10:00:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.67] (87-194-76-9.bethere.co.uk [87.194.76.9]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id x16sm19331748bku.5.2010.04.07.10.00.31 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 07 Apr 2010 10:00:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4BBCBA2E.4050800@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 18:00:30 +0100 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Tangent: Is there a better grammar? References: In-Reply-To: X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.222 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/6d4e31b897cbe4b1 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/e407719622ddd3c4 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oren, On 07/04/2010 02:14: > On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 01:03, And Rosta wrote: > [* As I see it, the design problem has two parts. Both have to do > with finding ways to logically precise meanings concise enough to be > worth the effort of verbalizing. One part is to find a more concise > way of of encoding variables than standard predicate logic notation > and Lojban offer, given that in most propositions we express (in > natural language) there are many variables and each variable tends > to be argument of many predicates. The other part is to devise an > inventory of predicates that expand to more complex logical structure= s.] >=20 > I don't really see your case here; if one of the basic goals is to be a= =20 > useful human language, then I don't see any alternative to predicate=20 > logic as two-dimensional representation of utterances. Or, if there was= =20 > one. it would seem inherently illogical due to it's complexity. Could=20 > you (or anyone) expand this thought? I'm not sure what you mean by "two-dimensional representation". In (what I = would see as) a two-dimensional representation of predicate--argument struc= ture, each element in the structure could be notated just once, so for exam= ple if something were argument of many predicates it could be notated in on= e place and then connected by (tangling) lines to the predicates it is argu= ment of. Presumably that sort of thing is a reasonable simulacrum of propos= itional thoughts. The challenge then is to linearize this into speakable fo= rm with sufficient concision -- and with sufficient processability. * * * Long ago for much of my lojban writing, I would write what I wanted to say = out in predicate logic form, first of all. But though the translation of th= at into Lojban was reasonably straightforward, the result was ghastly -- ve= rbose, unprocessable, a rebarbative jungle of "da xi"s and "zo'u"s. What co= mpetent Lojban stylists, and clever grammatical schemes like xorlo, do is t= hrow away lots of information until left with a residue that can be express= ed with acceptable elegance. --And. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.