From 3HcS8SwwJBukXLee.XLeeLcYRXLTW.NZXWZUMLYRZZRWPRcZfad.NZX@groups.bounces.google.com Wed Apr 07 10:43:21 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3HcS8SwwJBukXLee.XLeeLcYRXLTW.NZXWZUMLYRZZRWPRcZfad.NZX@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NzZHW-0000O9-H5 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 10:43:21 -0700 Received: by vws5 with SMTP id 5sf1152399vws.16 for ; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 10:43:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=HdMc+e9XnmGhFUQ4vP/jF2SjDEcJtfYs87YN6EQ04D8=; b=Sib/bMBeC6Md2ArofeCIUlLDmr1T4aH/G3rVwAd8T2lUEExlmsmQ/OM5I9as+yWeIl 98+GPqXCxAkifKpEBahwiOcLo5oGycDOvCntWlVw3LzMpxyQWy0UzyvmuZNQfVtJsaHu M3oPVnbt9lF5tvxzmyvOhatAzOVzc3Z1KMUJQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=dlad50XZO9JuiODSGQLvvwhLt27Evy+zJdI1skJyTzVdi1/HEp/HdenVv7J63/4H/x brL36l9soaLhdpuvkF0cjKG7owFprxe7ywxCCDqg4/VaT3pMX7F9CRnaT5qxxXbD0TRS +V6R5DmF/MnpB626uj3ELdM6uRtiEM5HCHK3w= Received: by 10.220.107.101 with SMTP id a37mr649791vcp.43.1270662173575; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 10:42:53 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.68.217 with SMTP id w25ls1754488vci.1.p; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 10:42:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.165.85 with SMTP id h21mr2277752vcy.12.1270662172159; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 10:42:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.165.85 with SMTP id h21mr2277751vcy.12.1270662172113; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 10:42:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gw0-f49.google.com (mail-gw0-f49.google.com [74.125.83.49]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 21si36612173vws.1.2010.04.07.10.42.51; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 10:42:51 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of matt.mattarn@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.49 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.83.49; Received: by gwb17 with SMTP id 17so246954gwb.8 for ; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 10:42:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.196.12 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 10:42:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4BBC3CE4.6080803@lojban.org> References: <20100405210225.GW6084@digitalkingdom.org> <4BBC3CE4.6080803@lojban.org> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 13:42:50 -0400 Received: by 10.150.56.28 with SMTP id e28mr738944yba.253.1270662170802; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 10:42:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: [lojban-announcements] Essay on the future of Lojban, with a simple poll for the community. From: Matt Arnold To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of matt.mattarn@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.49 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=matt.mattarn@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: matt.mattarn@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/c67f210addc06a0c X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/2c53120e20d9a607 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob, I have been drifting out of the community for the past couple of years through discouragement. I used to have such grand dreams for the project, but most of those plans turned out to be dependent on the BPFK finishing Lojban. I thought work was proceeding apace, behind the scenes, and that the only problem was generating enough work. It now turns out to have been actively held back by a dispute between description of usage, and prescription through centralized planning. In a community this size, usage is a statistically insignificant sample. We have no known means to measure or prove anything about usage. It is also a self-contradicting authority. Usage in the wild has no mechanism with which to resolve disputes with other usage. No wonder we were in a permanent bottleneck. We let talented people go to waste for nearly a decade. This has been a disaster. I do not accept it. The "let usage decide" policy was put in place to prevent a recurrance of the James Cooke Brown failure mode-- a failure mode which is no longer possible in the current environment. We need a policy that mitigates the failure mode we're seeing, not the one that threatened us decades ago. Now our failure mode is lack of decisiveness. It is the responsibility of centralized authority to break the impasse that happens when you let usage *totally* decide, rather than influence. Robin's plan is now well underway and it will succeed. I have confidence that the tide is overwhelmingly on our side. That will prevent me going away. But I will not remain in a project that is committed to an indefinite holding pattern. -Eppcott On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 4:05 AM, Bob LeChevalier wrote: >> On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 5:02 PM, Robin Lee Powell >> wrote: >> >>> FOLLOWUPS TO: The main list. >>> >>> OK, been promising it for a while; here it is. >>> >>> >>> http://teddyb.org/robin/tiki-index.php?page=3DLojban%3A+You're+Doing+It= +Wrong >>> >>> There are all *sorts* of finicky details we could discuss, but right >>> now I and others would very much just like to get a sense of where >>> the community stands on these sorts of issues, so, if we could >>> *please* keep the discussion for now (1) on the main list and (2) >>> agree/disagree answer to the following question, after you've read >>> (as much as you wish to) of the essay: >>> >>> I would like Lojban to remain as close as it possibly can to its >>> current state, regardless of whether I or a group of experienced >>> Lojbanists see that improvements could be made. >>> >>> Agree or disagree? > > Both, depending on timeframe and definitions of terms. > > Lojban needs to remain stable and resistant to change, especially in the > near term. =A0When numbers of Lojbanists and formal documentation are bot= h > strong enough, then "improvements" will generally be made by usage, not b= y > fiat, with skilled Lojbanists being the only ones having the capability t= o > demonstrate and explain their variant usages in-language, and other skill= ed > Lojbanists voting-with-their-usage to adopt the variation. > > That is what the phrase "let usage decide" was supposed to refer to - the > asymptotic reduction of change-by-fiat to nil, in favor of natural evolut= ion > through usage. =A0Shakespeare introduced considerable new vocabulary and = usage > to the English language, and needed no byfy to approve his efforts. > > Thus in the near term, I agree. =A0In the longer term, I disagree, but re= quire > that "improvements" are introduced through usage, and explanation > in-language when necessary, and not by fiat. > > Of course, by "current state", I mean the language that the byfy is > attempting to document, and not the state of half-documented-ness that > persists. > > lojbab > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.