From 3QNe8SwoJBiAG6HEfLQPN6U6DKK.8KIHKF76JCKKCHACNKQLO.8KI@groups.bounces.google.com Wed Apr 07 12:05:00 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3QNe8SwoJBiAG6HEfLQPN6U6DKK.8KIHKF76JCKKCHACNKQLO.8KI@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NzaYY-0006Aj-1G for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 12:04:59 -0700 Received: by vws5 with SMTP id 5sf1212586vws.16 for ; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 12:04:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:date:from:subject:to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fArxK+mmhMzUAokqR5U8AfCbrXmzbkEKxPEvCFUnvBI=; b=Wr4Hz4JWafO0TG5KJbj8JVUiOOMOWUfy8YD/fVfgdv8rQMhfocsMnPOOp3NWAo853j nyu5J++Cp3H7tcAJKlZxSAg4Fz6BzmYhq+n0Cd4N+vVS6+qVREq3+RyxFw3ZgiSfboia JMZQaZQK9Z69ErwUFf0DZY8woNtSh5PdiX/RA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:date:from :subject:to:mime-version:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=g38nvkTZNb1pp2giRr4IcCUEDT9Q5gjx1i60fjEjzsWTM6E880PVMaii1rLj/+y79W iZDuZZ87NIZyhQd2EL/0+f104p4x4sAgYAQQzXCcgioXQhD7/efDs8G2iY3FUWkg4v9t 6PTyneShxSyg7TI0VQXwXk8zpJFSMMJo/xgzE= Received: by 10.220.107.155 with SMTP id b27mr669337vcp.16.1270667072583; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 12:04:32 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.47.17 with SMTP id l17ls1754137vcf.5.p; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 12:04:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.168.71 with SMTP id t7mr2300256vcy.9.1270667069869; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 12:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.168.71 with SMTP id t7mr2300255vcy.9.1270667069846; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 12:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.118]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id 25si36781249vws.0.2010.04.07.12.04.28; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 12:04:28 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.118 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.118; Received: (qmail 64373 invoked by uid 60001); 7 Apr 2010 19:04:28 -0000 Message-ID: <307349.63432.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: rUVwS70VM1mnv45VakTtwsOwsic71VdzAM1tdrKeKrHlevf 9nNZRaBrZDjoPNxYINwZm.4rP6p9QMDUYCya9AtVgCVr_taqtfHG2VdSas.r JN2PPp6O.XvDiHbHynzSVSI_zIN5xrvGak1wrJ7mUa63iOnOwUkOZwCvnfy4 XNhbFFW.ZtYZ4tFn3oJdHGa73ws.My3nf_KefmdBHjCq5lnfaoElfGCwGsAT O4juA6hwOPP_nocRE8zbfXfEYIDE6jOy_VdS_DwsEh9taa8yZH8uxqgbi7T8 B4a5f7W9NC_Nj.nFq9QHGn9iZ6FBKKpDdkfNlz8OoMft1ClI- Received: from [71.14.73.129] by web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 12:04:28 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/324.3 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 12:04:28 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: [lojban] Some possibly helpful notes from LoCCan3 To: lojban@googlegroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.118 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/94a19f2fe13bca77 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/cc65a6c873b9ed9e Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 1. On precision: no LoCCan sentence can be more precise than its least precise brivla and will usually be less so. =20 2. Simple bridi are all right as they stand, simple arguments and simple predicate. This is the heart of the language of Logic. =20 3. Beyond that, as & pointed out in a recent post, adhering to predicate logic, in any of its various forms, in a spoken/written Language results in a hard to follow structure full of useless words. Not what LoCCan was meant to be. BUT all that linguistic detritus is what allows predicate logic to be free of synta= ctic ambiguity (parentheses of a variety of sorts variously realized in print). = =20 =20 4. So we need to make all this more speakable and yet preserve the unambiguity. Loglan tried on= e way to do this and Lojban took that over for the most part and expanded it. LoCCan3 should probably = start by reexamining the ways this was done and, hopefully, finding some other (better) ways to = do it. Looking at Montague=92s original papers and the subsequent stuff on English and other languages in that tradition may offer some clues. So will trying to figure out the back transformations from Loglan/Lojban to predica= te logic. This needs to be unique (as it may be, but is not obviously so). =20 5. The semantics of predicate logic, even of the wildly enhanced form that now underlies LoCCan= , is simple, reading directly off the syntactic structure of the sentences involved. LoCCan can have a simple semantics, too, if this underlying syntactic structure is uniquely recovera= ble. Again, Montague may be helpful. =20 6. The transformation of predicate logic to LoCCan seems to involve only a few thing: moving quantifiers and negation from canonical position to =93more natural=94 posi= tions in sentences, replaces variable by a range of variously ad hoc sorts of anapho= ra, collapsing parallel sentences with overlapping content into single sentence= s with the former parallelism now shown in joining the nonoverlapping parts within the overlapping frame, contextualizing many quantifiers to some cont= extually selected member of =93natural=94 sets, and, possibly most significantly, dr= opping RHE markers =93where they are not needed.=94 Are there other steps which might be easier or clearer and yet preserve the languagey character of the resultant? =20 7. Those contextually selected items need some work (or rather need to be put back to an earlier state). =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.