From 3Zeu8SwsJBlkCLB5125I75E7D19C.3FDCFA21E7FF7C57IFLGJ.3FD@groups.bounces.google.com Wed Apr 07 13:30:53 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3Zeu8SwsJBlkCLB5125I75E7D19C.3FDCFA21E7FF7C57IFLGJ.3FD@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nzbti-000254-CZ for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 13:30:53 -0700 Received: by gwj21 with SMTP id 21sf495414gwj.16 for ; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 13:30:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=6VXr6Jxv8unOXWTzNozcgDRDbZtOTsHEHEQpA89hA8I=; b=njItpW+PjebLlrjqKlJaM/6i55CpTtOi14tDfmZY0QUNxS53Z0Tr/BYkyCc431irgf CtBmAQkIS56+/vmKEjEdO8tOb0AapDw41g7nPt7SfPvzlym5gjgz9H3ewSUK0jB4f5C9 obUEX7Gv+zRHsU9XvxtFyghmA8DR+/T8TtSwg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=iIB4FLgGAxqBzbue9iIB4sVZD0OuDqU/+9gGkBxWdovWItDrlme61ewttYfH1mU8iA w/7QNUfJD+RfwgZal6OCXcoXyPjNTI79eeTrkVclUcq6i4vs/FyFol4PqgXH3ipxWelR k/RqP+tNQlD0nKg3tAh3vycCArb4myDL6Io4w= Received: by 10.150.172.18 with SMTP id u18mr398076ybe.86.1270672229695; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 13:30:29 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.234.22 with SMTP id g22ls929386ybh.7.p; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 13:30:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.213.208 with SMTP id gx16mr742991qcb.17.1270672227404; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 13:30:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.213.208 with SMTP id gx16mr742990qcb.17.1270672227342; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 13:30:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f41.google.com (mail-vw0-f41.google.com [209.85.212.41]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si1895663qyk.0.2010.04.07.13.30.26; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 13:30:26 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.41; Received: by mail-vw0-f41.google.com with SMTP id 14so796306vws.0 for ; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 13:30:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.167.140 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 13:30:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20100407202259.GM3000@nvg.org> References: <20100405210225.GW6084@digitalkingdom.org> <20100407202259.GM3000@nvg.org> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 16:30:25 -0400 Received: by 10.220.123.146 with SMTP id p18mr4770718vcr.157.1270672226028; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 13:30:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] [lojban-announcements] Essay on the future of Lojban, with a simple poll for the community. From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/c67f210addc06a0c X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/c7274120caf77ca5 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e68ee9c7a88d680483ab6e81 --0016e68ee9c7a88d680483ab6e81 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just to clarify, we're not talking about huge re-constructional changes her= e are we? We're talking about things like xorlo and dotside. If I have to re-learn the gismu that I know now and re-understand a new tense system, I would change my vote. But as I suspect that what RLPowell is talking about is nothing so drastic as all that, I'm ok with change. On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Arnt Richard Johansen wrote: > On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 02:02:25PM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > I would like Lojban to remain as close as it possibly can to its > > current state, regardless of whether I or a group of experienced > > Lojbanists see that improvements could be made. > > > > Agree or disagree? > > I used to believe that the most important thing for the regular user and > learner of Lojban was that the language should not change from under thei= r > feet, so that the effort spent learning it would not go to waste. > > But the responses I've seen to this poll from beginners and old-timers > alike have convinced me that, if this was the prevailing opinion fifteen > years ago, it is certainly not the prevailing opinion now. > > It does give me pause that the LLG now appears to be on the course to > breaking the promise it made in CLL in 1997: =93You can learn the languag= e > described here with assurance that (unlike previous versions of Lojban an= d > Loglan, as well as most other artificial languages) it will not be subjec= t > to further fiddling by language-meisters.=94 But, since the community doe= s not > seem to care that much about stability, maybe that does not after all > represent a fatal blow to the LLG's credibility? > > In any case, from now on I will stop arguing for conservatism on behalf o= f > a silent majority that turns out to nothing but a product of confirmation > bias and wishful thinking. > > (I may still protest if the BPFK tries to effect a change that I, > personally, find too difficult to learn, but I don't expect such objectio= ns > to carry much force.) > > -- > Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/ > The names of a species, empire, language, homeworld, homestar and so > on will all be self-evidently related; Ogrons come from Ogros, > Arisians come from Arisia, Arcturans come from Arcturus, and Humans no > doubt come from Humus. --Justin B. Rye in A Primer In SF Xenolinguistics > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016e68ee9c7a88d680483ab6e81 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just to clarify, we're not talking about huge re-constructional changes= here are we? =A0We're talking about things like xorlo and dotside. =A0= If I have to re-learn the gismu that I know now and re-understand a new ten= se system, I would change my vote. =A0But as I suspect that what RLPowell i= s talking about is nothing so drastic as all that, I'm ok with change.<= br>
On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Arnt Richard= Johansen <arj@nvg.org<= /a>> wrote:
On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 02:02:25PM -0700, Robin Lee Powel= l wrote:
> =A0 I would like Lojban to remain as close as it possibly can to its > =A0 current state, regardless of whether I or a group of experienced > =A0 Lojbanists see that improvements could be made.
>
> Agree or disagree?

I used to believe that the most important thing for the regular user = and learner of Lojban was that the language should not change from under th= eir feet, so that the effort spent learning it would not go to waste.

But the responses I've seen to this poll from beginners and old-timers = alike have convinced me that, if this was the prevailing opinion fifteen ye= ars ago, it is certainly not the prevailing opinion now.

It does give me pause that the LLG now appears to be on the course to break= ing the promise it made in CLL in 1997: =93You can learn the language descr= ibed here with assurance that (unlike previous versions of Lojban and Logla= n, as well as most other artificial languages) it will not be subject to fu= rther fiddling by language-meisters.=94 But, since the community does not s= eem to care that much about stability, maybe that does not after all repres= ent a fatal blow to the LLG's credibility?

In any case, from now on I will stop arguing for conservatism on behalf of = a silent majority that turns out to nothing but a product of confirmation b= ias and wishful thinking.

(I may still protest if the BPFK tries to effect a change that I, personall= y, find too difficult to learn, but I don't expect such objections to c= arry much force.)

--
Arnt Richard Johansen =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0http://arj.nvg= .org/
The names of a species, empire, language, homeworld, homestar and so
on will all be self-evidently related; Ogrons come from Ogros,
Arisians come from Arisia, Arcturans come from Arcturus, and Humans no
doubt come from Humus. --Justin B. Rye in A Primer In SF Xenolinguistics
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--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
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