From 3gva8SwwJBoErfyy.rfyyfwslrfnq.htrqtogfslttlqjlwtzux.htr@groups.bounces.google.com Wed Apr 07 14:18:20 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f140.google.com ([209.85.210.140]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3gva8SwwJBoErfyy.rfyyfwslrfnq.htrqtogfslttlqjlwtzux.htr@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nzcdc-0004QZ-4Q for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 14:18:20 -0700 Received: by yxe4 with SMTP id 4sf628649yxe.28 for ; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 14:18:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ym3BpG2YmI5k5oW0TWNDL2jdh9gNVoLI1vKaowfGwk0=; b=PMqgNDIzMhCiUNkZs0X6zjo0XljMuDWwBwqu+mGAxFt1ckDXDNFfE+7y4MvvsLUhse 8QlkTlHVAP94Vf6vFOx5lhfMUbZOv1f9qlR7dYTY34DiPama7z/Qi4K0aAQZqLE+AFwo q+xrCeYqxxKrPNe4+vQOvnhEep9Kwawkc2G0U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=5rTAg64iEduEcVbSptP09YBgU2QtdscyQhopoqHhL0l5exeHvsDdq9GmMFfD+puOwO 8cwIZdD4fMT11MzGsF4zgRG7/mCCcIrz64og/l+UrGxNuvkF+OOfU4V0UPpiQgld55Y1 WFiodqhvL0She30Mcd5Q3Nzg87YT76yZam4GY= Received: by 10.101.11.14 with SMTP id o14mr268968ani.21.1270675074909; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 14:17:54 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.171.33 with SMTP id y33ls1406039ano.1.p; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 14:17:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.8.21 with SMTP id l21mr4696491ani.18.1270675072651; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 14:17:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.8.21 with SMTP id l21mr4696488ani.18.1270675072481; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 14:17:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gx0-f219.google.com (mail-gx0-f219.google.com [209.85.217.219]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 24si311949yxe.9.2010.04.07.14.17.51; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 14:17:51 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of matt.mattarn@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.219 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.217.219; Received: by mail-gx0-f219.google.com with SMTP id 19so815446gxk.0 for ; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 14:17:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.196.12 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 14:17:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20100407202259.GM3000@nvg.org> References: <20100405210225.GW6084@digitalkingdom.org> <20100407202259.GM3000@nvg.org> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 17:17:50 -0400 Received: by 10.150.63.7 with SMTP id l7mr9708146yba.343.1270675070428; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 14:17:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] [lojban-announcements] Essay on the future of Lojban, with a simple poll for the community. From: Matt Arnold To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of matt.mattarn@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.219 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=matt.mattarn@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: matt.mattarn@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/c67f210addc06a0c X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/dd49347e135c9775 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Arnt, Our humble proposition is merely "more than zero change". Do not conflate that with "zero stability". There is a spectrum. The LLG is tasked with solving problems that Lojban *users*-- such as me-- often don't even realize exist. I've studied Lojban for years, and the proposed changes I have heard are so obscure that I have never learned the things that I would have to un-learn. The rug is not being pulled out from under us-- the BPFK will tie up the loose ends to repair the frayed edges of the rug. To put it another way, if these changes prove a handicap to someone, this is a "princess and the pea" scenario. A massive oversensitivity to change that is merely "more than zero". -Eppcott On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Arnt Richard Johansen wrote: > On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 02:02:25PM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote: >> =A0 I would like Lojban to remain as close as it possibly can to its >> =A0 current state, regardless of whether I or a group of experienced >> =A0 Lojbanists see that improvements could be made. >> >> Agree or disagree? > > I used to believe that the most important thing for the regular user and = learner of Lojban was that the language should not change from under their = feet, so that the effort spent learning it would not go to waste. > > But the responses I've seen to this poll from beginners and old-timers al= ike have convinced me that, if this was the prevailing opinion fifteen year= s ago, it is certainly not the prevailing opinion now. > > It does give me pause that the LLG now appears to be on the course to bre= aking the promise it made in CLL in 1997: =93You can learn the language des= cribed here with assurance that (unlike previous versions of Lojban and Log= lan, as well as most other artificial languages) it will not be subject to = further fiddling by language-meisters.=94 But, since the community does not= seem to care that much about stability, maybe that does not after all repr= esent a fatal blow to the LLG's credibility? > > In any case, from now on I will stop arguing for conservatism on behalf o= f a silent majority that turns out to nothing but a product of confirmation= bias and wishful thinking. > > (I may still protest if the BPFK tries to effect a change that I, persona= lly, find too difficult to learn, but I don't expect such objections to car= ry much force.) > > -- > Arnt Richard Johansen =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= =A0 =A0 =A0http://arj.nvg.org/ > The names of a species, empire, language, homeworld, homestar and so > on will all be self-evidently related; Ogrons come from Ogros, > Arisians come from Arisia, Arcturans come from Arcturus, and Humans no > doubt come from Humus. --Justin B. Rye in A Primer In SF Xenolinguistics > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.