From 3Lhy9SwkJBlMv8y.C9DEv17v36.x97694wv819916z1C9FAD.x97@groups.bounces.google.com Wed Apr 07 16:59:04 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3Lhy9SwkJBlMv8y.C9DEv17v36.x97694wv819916z1C9FAD.x97@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nzf99-0003kL-Fg for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 16:59:03 -0700 Received: by gwj21 with SMTP id 21sf598162gwj.16 for ; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 16:58:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=GviWJMXySg5T9YuS1w/AdLL6KHLEHbwrQzXU0jqIge8=; b=jj+h0iTAqtW+6BLub93cI10mDyDvFqA3bNQAysinFZwdV5o7pG1J+u1xQmIYeOzE09 jwp2Nouk0fut3PdXU/1qqtOobqUZrfollSurix2WqKilo9zhDiPZ0LDw4uI3WRonsKb/ 67k8WNr/2ZXoeN324X22MieNh1x/R7XPjpq/c= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=GpfAfrD2d8dDfcLcTKJiXFgSYAA8mo+yaz4cfgXdXE71TqPU1GRSZZZoS5ukBKGRgt kT50/4640QN8crAFNjuEjDgtPUA8w/5WHyjmb014l+QezbBumhiTiIRGBav/KItjGPaQ VZk5WWg3pX0qNz1GvGo5AdSr271PA1+Fwbvx4= Received: by 10.91.160.33 with SMTP id m33mr799459ago.24.1270684718481; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 16:58:38 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.35.68 with SMTP id o4ls2834871bkd.1.p; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 16:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.22.69 with SMTP id m5mr489926bkb.19.1270684715078; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 16:58:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.22.69 with SMTP id m5mr489925bkb.19.1270684715050; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 16:58:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f219.google.com (mail-bw0-f219.google.com [209.85.218.219]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 11si1094651bwz.10.2010.04.07.16.58.33; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 16:58:34 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.219 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.218.219; Received: by bwz19 with SMTP id 19so63479bwz.4 for ; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 16:58:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.134.87 with SMTP id i23mr5890183bkt.125.1270684709864; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 16:58:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.67] (87-194-76-9.bethere.co.uk [87.194.76.9]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 24sm126990590bkr.6.2010.04.07.16.58.28 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 07 Apr 2010 16:58:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4BBD1C23.9020600@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 00:58:27 +0100 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] [lojban-announcements] Essay on the future of Lojban, with a simple poll for the community. References: <20100405210225.GW6084@digitalkingdom.org> <20100407202259.GM3000@nvg.org> <20100407205925.GP11541@digitalkingdom.org> In-Reply-To: <20100407205925.GP11541@digitalkingdom.org> X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.219 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/c67f210addc06a0c X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/9eb1fdc3be6e9c54 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One can imagine certain sensible rules of thumb applying, such as "If a giv= en improvement would result in nontrivial amounts of relearning, then it is= appropriate for Logban3 but not for Lojban". (Better change that to "If a = given improvement would result in nontrivial amounts of relearning, then it= is appropriate for Logban3 but not for Lojban, *unless it is a fix for som= ething that is broken*" -- I'm thinking of the pre-xorlo gadri system, the = extraordinarily intense attempts to fix which led to the establishment of t= he BPFK and its completely irreconcilable various goals. People did invest = considerable effort in learning a broken gadri system.) --And. Robin Lee Powell, On 07/04/2010 21:59: > I'm proposing setting a group of experienced Lojbanists with the > task of making these sorts of decisions; if you're worried, join up > and help. >=20 > As far as I'm aware, no-one is proposing the sorts of things you're > worried about. >=20 > -Robin >=20 > On Wed, Apr 07, 2010 at 04:30:25PM -0400, Luke Bergen wrote: >> Just to clarify, we're not talking about huge re-constructional >> changes here are we? We're talking about things like xorlo and >> dotside. If I have to re-learn the gismu that I know now and >> re-understand a new tense system, I would change my vote. But as >> I suspect that what RLPowell is talking about is nothing so >> drastic as all that, I'm ok with change. >> >> On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Arnt Richard Johansen >> wrote: >> >>> On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 02:02:25PM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote: >>>> I would like Lojban to remain as close as it possibly can to its >>>> current state, regardless of whether I or a group of experienced >>>> Lojbanists see that improvements could be made. >>>> >>>> Agree or disagree? >>> I used to believe that the most important thing for the regular user an= d >>> learner of Lojban was that the language should not change from under th= eir >>> feet, so that the effort spent learning it would not go to waste. >>> >>> But the responses I've seen to this poll from beginners and old-timers >>> alike have convinced me that, if this was the prevailing opinion fiftee= n >>> years ago, it is certainly not the prevailing opinion now. >>> >>> It does give me pause that the LLG now appears to be on the course to >>> breaking the promise it made in CLL in 1997: =93You can learn the langu= age >>> described here with assurance that (unlike previous versions of Lojban = and >>> Loglan, as well as most other artificial languages) it will not be subj= ect >>> to further fiddling by language-meisters.=94 But, since the community d= oes not >>> seem to care that much about stability, maybe that does not after all >>> represent a fatal blow to the LLG's credibility? >>> >>> In any case, from now on I will stop arguing for conservatism on behalf= of >>> a silent majority that turns out to nothing but a product of confirmati= on >>> bias and wishful thinking. >>> >>> (I may still protest if the BPFK tries to effect a change that I, >>> personally, find too difficult to learn, but I don't expect such object= ions >>> to carry much force.) >>> >>> -- >>> Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org= / >>> The names of a species, empire, language, homeworld, homestar and so >>> on will all be self-evidently related; Ogrons come from Ogros, >>> Arisians come from Arisia, Arcturans come from Arcturus, and Humans no >>> doubt come from Humus. --Justin B. Rye in A Primer In SF Xenolinguistic= s >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >>> >>> >> --=20 >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googleg= roups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/loj= ban?hl=3Den. >> >=20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.