From 3dIW9SwkOBgMmerwlmodqjrrjohpdlo.frpormedqjrrjohjurxsv.frp@groups.bounces.google.com Thu Apr 08 00:28:17 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3dIW9SwkOBgMmerwlmodqjrrjohpdlo.frpormedqjrrjohjurxsv.frp@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nzm9r-0006ua-Fu for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 00:28:17 -0700 Received: by gwj21 with SMTP id 21sf733715gwj.16 for ; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 00:28:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:date :in-reply-to:x-ip:references:user-agent:x-http-useragent:received :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Tk9TRap1nykj4oBgBjgM0jkeEdyIt7e3+3J4MRW3JDE=; b=G09lwbJPu6ICcXJHyOdZ8bNA1CLcBMM2WHS7KmVPYIQQDmscQXYpY8/DkIrao78uuN JdG5KhP4WEn9AnPRRLeRCTGUra8O4RyIijOwk11dCssHwAyvu78rHAEkZibXB0ilDybv eSyQsDkrs4ZEQfTGppcUfI4vntb5XcHruLwWU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:x-ip :references:user-agent:x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=H32BKa3rzf6pAnexsjsdyRJsf5EI3oUv+1ukTA8GSJ+FitSu2dqfS329BzjrmYsOUy vJFy0t4BZZZtkGfHmlDZcW9RdEL4tE0FZb4YZ54/tYam/KOG4qFitdZsEuTPLW/TggCF JUsLQZZdKf3udCN14ZyNUkSfBV/oxgkFmsXl8= Received: by 10.91.185.15 with SMTP id m15mr833730agp.49.1270711668279; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 00:27:48 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.67.25 with SMTP id u25ls36304agk.7.p; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 00:27:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.27.37 with SMTP id e37mr6340475agj.9.1270711665294; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 00:27:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.27.37 with SMTP id e37mr6340474agj.9.1270711665256; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 00:27:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f140.google.com (mail-yx0-f140.google.com [209.85.210.140]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 25si1487328ywh.15.2010.04.08.00.27.45; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 00:27:45 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jbotijlan@googlemail.com designates 209.85.210.140 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.140; Received: by yxe4 with SMTP id 4so831336yxe.28 for ; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 00:27:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by x3g2000yqd.googlegroups.com with HTTP; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 00:27:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 00:27:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-IP: 94.195.20.70 References: <201004062259.07334.phma@phma.optus.nu> User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US) AppleWebKit/532.5 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/4.1.249.1045 Safari/532.5,gzip(gfe) Received: by 10.151.18.3 with SMTP id v3mr410121ybi.62.1270711665165; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 00:27:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5fead1bc-c9b4-42cd-83b4-f01661ff1bd1@x3g2000yqd.googlegroups.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: "any John" -- is it possible to translate this? From: tijlan To: lojban X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jbotijlan@googlemail.com designates 209.85.210.140 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jbotijlan@googlemail.com X-Original-Sender: jbotijlan@googlemail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/287899a54f24bd6a X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/f403b27c32c21c51 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Apr 7, 5:41=A0pm, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 11:25 AM, tijlan wrote: > >>> - la djon po'u ma > >>> - ro da > > > I was aware of "po'u" being not symmetrical. By "da" I meant a kind of > > place holder for that which would follow "la djon po'u", and "ro da" > > for any such, expandable to "ro da poi steci ke'a la'i djon". =A0For > > example, "John the fast runner" would be "la djon po'u le sutra > > bajra", "John the good father" would be "la djon po'u le xamgu patfu". > > But unless "the fast runner" and "the good father" are the same John, > you want "ro" to be outside the scope of "po'u". > > =A0 ro da zo'u la djon po'u da cu broda > > is different from > > =A0 =A0la djon po'u ro da cu broda > > In a more expamded form, the first one is: > > =A0 =A0ro da zo'u la djon poi ke'a du da cu broda > > and the second is: > > =A0 =A0la djon poi ro da zo'u ke'a du da cu broda I believe you are right, but something doesn't fully click with me yet. I have a note of some explanation you gave on jbotcan a while ago in a discussion with somebody else, saying that: "surface order reflects scope order: what comes later is within the scope of what came first" "all operators (connective, quantifiers, negation) have scope in the order in which they appear" I understand that "ro da zo'u la djon po'u da cu broda" differs from "la djon po'u ro da cu broda" because a different value is picked for each "da" according to its own scope order; but I don't see why "da" in "la djon po'u ro da cu broda" cannot mean any sumti which serves to restrictively identify "la djon", as in "la djon poi ro da poi steci ke'a la djon zo'u ke'a du da cu broda". mu'o mi'e tijlan --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.