From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhCT9vjdBBoEUKR3Mw@googlegroups.com Thu Apr 08 13:23:09 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f137.google.com ([209.85.211.137]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NzyFl-0005w8-MT for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 13:23:08 -0700 Received: by ywh1 with SMTP id 1sf22963ywh.28 for ; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 13:22:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=+civeXyBMKHEMDEyOMzUBXYekvor1MEDHJMGq7TAtEc=; b=L8DwBcqwtNiemwEong0ttDmyYLt+WsIbXUFILdIgXsUiDD7X6UjBlc81hebCgBaWh7 Lpa8wmAZmckoEyO8WwP36tAxT0aBSSJHXrnJ5lhmoGPMPShdtYkWT3QmQW8rVdCVkMyE VfeBDy8cPgsXAElryNNxmasA5Ml5b+qO2a5Og= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=b74H/ieRBd0qagKHao1p2DcoLfm0vThmxaES4NqATXHqlYdX1lBJZ7MhqEmvmvWdUI mihAtf7Xsow98/mbFZ+fVJgRGwXvLrM/h8g0t77J6HJrTSOtXwrQBchxgC3zWpdCxlXS zi4GIw7t9xoEfEq2pgglRga1+lSP0V5GxpSk4= Received: by 10.91.85.16 with SMTP id n16mr133376agl.2.1270758163791; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 13:22:43 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.35.68 with SMTP id o4ls22785bkd.1.p; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 13:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.156.205 with SMTP id y13mr48618bkw.7.1270758161681; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 13:22:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.156.205 with SMTP id y13mr48617bkw.7.1270758161625; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 13:22:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f48.google.com (mail-ww0-f48.google.com [74.125.82.48]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id a10si483110bkc.5.2010.04.08.13.22.40; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 13:22:40 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.48 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.48; Received: by mail-ww0-f48.google.com with SMTP id 29so10977wwb.21 for ; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 13:22:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.30.146 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 13:22:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20100408194126.GP3000@nvg.org> References: <4BBDECA2.5000500@lojban.org> <4BBE0713.6030903@lojban.org> <20100408175114.GF11541@digitalkingdom.org> <518904.92039.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20100408194126.GP3000@nvg.org> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 14:22:39 -0600 Received: by 10.216.90.202 with SMTP id e52mr313089wef.150.1270758160004; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 13:22:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Dot-side and gadri (was: Essay on the future of Lojban, with a simple poll for the community.) From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.48 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d7ee57b8f6f80483bf70b7 --0016e6d7ee57b8f6f80483bf70b7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 1:41 PM, Arnt Richard Johansen wrote: > On Thu, Apr 08, 2010 at 12:21:46PM -0700, John E Clifford wrote: > > > > For newbies and oldbies with failing midterm memories (I'm pretty good = on > problems in Loglan in 1977), could some one review what dot whatsis is > > It is a solution to a problem that has best been described in an essay by > Mark Shoulson on the wiki: > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=3DThe%20Case%20Against%20L= A > > Basically, proficient Lojban speakers have proven unable to prevent the > slip-up where the strings =93la=94 or =93doi=94 accidentally appear in no= nce names. > > We call the variant of Lojban with all cmevla delimited with pauses on bo= th > sides =93dot side=94, in a reference to Star Wars. > My signature says, basically, "Come to the Dot Side!" > > > and what (aside from 'lo') is wrong (or was) with gadris. > > Well, AFAIK the only serious problem with the Lojban gadri system as > described in CLL is that it did not allow for intensional descriptions, o= r > non-distributive plurals. The majority of people who voted on the gadri > section in BPFK were of the opinion that Lojban couldn't remain without a= ny > kind of expressing intensional descriptions, so =93lo=94 was pressed into > service as an article with unspecified intensionality/extensionality. > > The pre-publication drafts of the book =93Plural Predication=94 by Thomas= McKay > was highly influential in this solution. ( > http://www.amazon.com/Plural-Predication-Thomas-McKay/dp/0199278148/) > > -- > Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/ > Yxskaftbud, ge v=E5r wczonm=F6 iqhj=E4lp. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016e6d7ee57b8f6f80483bf70b7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 1:41 PM, Arnt Richard Joh= ansen <arj@nvg.org&= gt; wrote:
On Thu, Apr 08, 2010 at 12:21:46PM -0700, John E Clifford wrote:
>
> For newbies and oldbies with failing midterm memories (I'm pretty = good on problems in Loglan in 1977), could some one review what dot whatsis= is

It is a solution to a problem that has best been described in an essay by M= ark Shoulson on the wiki:
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?pag= e=3DThe%20Case%20Against%20LA

Basically, proficient Lojban speakers have proven unable to prevent the sli= p-up where the strings =93la=94 or =93doi=94 accidentally appear in nonce n= ames.

We call the variant of Lojban with all cmevla delimited with pauses on both= sides =93dot side=94, in a reference to Star Wars.
My signature says, basically, "Come to the Dot Side!"

> and what (aside from 'lo') is wrong (or was) with gadris.

Well, AFAIK the only serious problem with the Lojban gadri system as descri= bed in CLL is that it did not allow for intensional descriptions, or non-di= stributive plurals. The majority of people who voted on the gadri section i= n BPFK were of the opinion that Lojban couldn't remain without any kind= of expressing intensional descriptions, so =93lo=94 was pressed into servi= ce as an article with unspecified intensionality/extensionality.

The pre-publication drafts of the book =93Plural Predication=94 by Thomas M= cKay was highly influential in this solution. (http= ://www.amazon.com/Plural-Predication-Thomas-McKay/dp/0199278148/)

--
Arnt Richard Johansen =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0http://arj.nvg= .org/
Yxskaftbud, ge v=E5r wczonm=F6 iqhj=E4lp.

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--
mu'o mi'= e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu

--
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