From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRD5hPndBBoEspOWcg@googlegroups.com Thu Apr 08 13:54:41 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NzykI-0008Th-9P for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 13:54:41 -0700 Received: by gwj21 with SMTP id 21sf1141490gwj.16 for ; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 13:54:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=gdB7pEeg7hm2iuYz7B4Jc8UCBcfpd4nZMAViIfO2bOw=; b=B9W85hL5D5vkTGxP28M5EifhtA71x77/SOjDO/y7wUkm4OLrdlqbPEqqfSZX68ypSf /XFA7STWt8O/si/rbyxeTjYdDReKVnHLTxrKUITWfPzbZJ9W/WfLCqf124hjLt412UQh H35I0Xz4GAhpwBEzt0vWgxjxXwkxuP+9ytRnE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=p4YYU0JAzGwH2rW5xmfax4TO5uc3325zKZUY0lmxhgNaRDvif9RZmVKXdwl8V0yyaF 19FW1FpA125dU1F7/xQcomYX+soiX3fE4mKlATS5Ce63VZ7m8tULO2aZWmXIzgTz8XbJ 9BaM5NIPftqiEyNnMocAptwbp+sRtyh5p8FdA= Received: by 10.150.233.5 with SMTP id f5mr45905ybh.26.1270760057569; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 13:54:17 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.90.172.20 with SMTP id u20ls45620age.4.p; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 13:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.9.19 with SMTP id 19mr1056753agi.4.1270760056516; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 13:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.9.19 with SMTP id 19mr1056749agi.4.1270760056456; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 13:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.120]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id 19si25925yxe.7.2010.04.08.13.54.15; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 13:54:15 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.120 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.120; Received: (qmail 48621 invoked by uid 60001); 8 Apr 2010 20:54:14 -0000 Message-ID: <937113.44086.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: nDQ8J2MVM1koXFSy6cweZeVP38OXsyH3hnI5UnIXsvgm0tS WW39rjmscuvHNlIFVjJaRzVFMFYFckQqgcX02YIhVF2VLF1IVHHi0twPDDOS Y5UjF3wvbJ535Zyiq6uW47.hcJYMNtzRvzAe_NSmpUGxQUDVggzPzpM5UbFb bOomP92AhhhB0D4bcpty_YKzzBSugHFGMsQqJSZyvTibAeReNRPuJx3X8z7M KePWtyC0_MdUfKg5EBckyUzILMNSgaajfiXWt80trdSohNIAZLzhq3Bb5I2K Zx.Wyemagj9sHOOgTVH0SMN5PHyfETXDOn0BvdIBq5UzJtgkevam9BzuxxMa A7q8N.GIiO3UfBT5iA6_hRvHEUf8MF7.wbuUFEA-- Received: from [71.14.73.129] by web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 13:54:14 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/324.3 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 References: <4BBC3CE4.6080803@lojban.org> <4BBDECA2.5000500@lojban.org> <4BBE0713.6030903@lojban.org> <20100408175114.GF11541@digitalkingdom.org> <518904.92039.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20100408194126.GP3000@nvg.org> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 13:54:14 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Dot-side and gadri (was: Essay on the future of Lojban, with a simple poll for the community.) To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <20100408194126.GP3000@nvg.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.120 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable intensional descriptions? Is this a special kind of description or a descr= iption of a special kind of object? If the former, what is wanted (and ho= w would having neutral gadri solve it); if the latter, why is this a matter= for gadri rather than for the introduced bridi? I genuinely have forgotte= n what this was all about, while deprecating the results (xorlo). The McKa= y piece was a brilliant find and hopefully not something anyone wants to go= back on. ----- Original Message ---- From: Arnt Richard Johansen To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, April 8, 2010 2:41:27 PM Subject: [lojban] Dot-side and gadri (was: Essay on the future of Lojban, w= ith a simple poll for the community.) On Thu, Apr 08, 2010 at 12:21:46PM -0700, John E Clifford wrote: >=20 > For newbies and oldbies with failing midterm memories (I'm pretty good on= problems in Loglan in 1977), could some one review what dot whatsis is It is a solution to a problem that has best been described in an essay by M= ark Shoulson on the wiki: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=3DThe%20Case%20Against%20LA Basically, proficient Lojban speakers have proven unable to prevent the sli= p-up where the strings =93la=94 or =93doi=94 accidentally appear in nonce n= ames. We call the variant of Lojban with all cmevla delimited with pauses on both= sides =93dot side=94, in a reference to Star Wars. > and what (aside from 'lo') is wrong (or was) with gadris. Well, AFAIK the only serious problem with the Lojban gadri system as descri= bed in CLL is that it did not allow for intensional descriptions, or non-di= stributive plurals. The majority of people who voted on the gadri section i= n BPFK were of the opinion that Lojban couldn't remain without any kind of = expressing intensional descriptions, so =93lo=94 was pressed into service a= s an article with unspecified intensionality/extensionality. The pre-publication drafts of the book =93Plural Predication=94 by Thomas M= cKay was highly influential in this solution. (http://www.amazon.com/Plural= -Predication-Thomas-McKay/dp/0199278148/) --=20 Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/ Yxskaftbud, ge v=E5r wczonm=F6 iqhj=E4lp. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.