From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhDJiv3dBBoEubUX4A@googlegroups.com Fri Apr 09 08:19:00 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O0Fyw-0001ef-Vs for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 08:18:59 -0700 Received: by gyd5 with SMTP id 5sf1814647gyd.16 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 08:18:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=IZQAa5BvLX4LGjINblGPKSYtQBpamw8i0g5Nh4H1dMQ=; b=rbqoZ5wLTuRHLal+VfNZtOv+yUzLUOrhzjlkj9Wk89TEsg5i5iD/Xj2/FlABEnzuX7 GtoixNMgpnwkYlhYXz08Q5U/er+anPXqqhiHW9qw2Ir/aBoVMgDxGrao+QpBBAaCgltc l5ZtHRivJlLLMmXo8cAzl+T51dsRJGpEklIcw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=QRqontH3GVnRaepzKZ1wgylI2+bcUrK12laztiEUPBxrHOQCU9bE5VEdIkqi5Arrt8 TXuJfxw42zrWllEtGuEA3i81RBB+IdFQViV1ICabHloAEpzARmRGsQf8t5IM4A/01UF2 6t1djE3Je3oI048ql63NDuayyqOYupowv9k68= Received: by 10.101.165.27 with SMTP id s27mr12858ano.36.1270826313666; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 08:18:33 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.35.68 with SMTP id o4ls303754bkd.1.p; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 08:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.163.19 with SMTP id y19mr18746bkx.2.1270826310360; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 08:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.163.19 with SMTP id y19mr18745bkx.2.1270826310139; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 08:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com (mail-qy0-f189.google.com [209.85.221.189]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id e24si1524000bke.6.2010.04.09.08.18.28; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 08:18:29 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.189 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.221.189; Received: by mail-qy0-f189.google.com with SMTP id 27so4580434qyk.23 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 08:18:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.39.197 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 08:18:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 11:18:28 -0400 Received: by 10.229.190.129 with SMTP id di1mr155400qcb.75.1270826308487; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 08:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Summary: Cultural fu'ivla From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.189 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/6edf3f52e6f491ba X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/3b4f287d69cb802c Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 6:50 PM, MorphemeAddict wrote: > I see it as an emergent property of a language, above the level of words. > (OR) The set of words called language X has properties than the words > themselves don't have. > > Words have many properties that are not also properties of the language t= hey > are part of. > Cultural bias in individual words is not a problem. That's what fu'ivla a= re > for, among other things: importing words from other languages, making suc= h > fu'ivla necessarily culturally biased. Those biased fu'ivla don't > necessarily make the language as a whole biased. > Also, the very existence or absence of a word could be considered cultura= lly > biased. That's the problem with the cultural gismu. They are biased towar= ds > cultures that have their own gismu. > > stevo > > On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 1:34 PM, Christopher Doty > wrote: >> >> On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 19:54, MorphemeAddict wrote: >>> >>> Has anyone ever said that individual words shouldn't be culturally >>> biased, e.g., your example of "portugala/portugese"?=A0 I have only eve= r heard >>> that the language shouldn't be culturally biased. >> >> I keep trying to respond to this, but I'm not sure what you mean. =A0If = the >> bias doesn't come from words, their sources, and their meanings, where d= o >> you see it coming from? >> Chris >> >> -- I concur. The question of "does using autonyms =3D being cultural biased" should be answered "no". The fact that "everyone outside of country X uses words related to exonym Y, while those inside use Z for their nation" can be based on a whole lot of reasons, e.g. "X was conquered by nation H, an empire that influenced the language of many other peoples" Doesn't make history "less culturally biased" just because X is powerless to stop use of Y-derived names. American Sign Language faced down this issue many decades ago. Back when I was learning ASL in the early 80s, many country signs were derived from American stereotypes of of other countries (ex. "Chinese" signifying the epicanthal fold, "Egyptian" mimicking the pharoanic headdress' serpent, etc.). By the time my wife went to Gallaudet in the late 80s, PC powers that be had chucked all American national signs in favor of autonyms created by the native signers, for those countries that had a sign language. Even Loglan (1975 version, which was the one that I learned 30 years ago) had a class of primitives (what we would call "gismu") called "N-prims" which were derived solely from one language or language family, rather than the classic 8 languages (they used two more than lojban) used for other primitives (C-prims), when the item/concept referred to was mostly confined (natively) to one area/language group. And it wasn't just for countries or languages. For example, "simba" for "lion" and "galno" for "gallon". --gejyspa --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.