From lojban+bncCJ2w4Zy_AhCIzP3dBBoEJGu8CQ@googlegroups.com Fri Apr 09 10:38:48 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O0IAA-00031G-7x for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:38:44 -0700 Received: by vws5 with SMTP id 5sf3130778vws.16 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:38:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:received:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=fOmIAu1ypAdYDbNoUblSlb89Xe4wgOAbrKY4o0RMqxo=; b=4T60yuyoeR1DbiAQIMWAvANIWfht7dFmw2LL4t1xZL8fmWvv5Gl1tnsp26LHu/4CfG a6C/fAkhfg7zqQKiFkVCQJ+Uhr0V5/lRlI0Pb6b+iRrBwzPP97UcrBNnjz3uCl9rBW7j fqBjpqO5p4g7UrpL3GkGx6wZfRGFe3w4A88Js= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=jLWYnbwX5iQgA7LJ7fTr0Z3SGW8/yUFKh6vTlI4ZQR3l38rwMoYahc9YAofJRYX1nZ QmhKBQ0vE9G38+7drn9zG7DUqvQcOGVBOQXgPcxO/1y1aj4OUzpHOoPh/tG441n9MwOi s0s0BP83Ag75UkEDDCum7l8gqHy7TNuVg3UYk= Received: by 10.220.124.202 with SMTP id v10mr34842vcr.52.1270834696820; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:38:16 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.87.130 with SMTP id w2ls182450vcl.4.p; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:38:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.165.8 with SMTP id g8mr106347vcy.1.1270834695454; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:38:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.165.8 with SMTP id g8mr106346vcy.1.1270834695425; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:38:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gw0-f41.google.com (mail-gw0-f41.google.com [74.125.83.41]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 29si3674261vws.2.2010.04.09.10.38.14; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.83.41; Received: by gwb15 with SMTP id 15so1786529gwb.28 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:38:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.5.20 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 10:37:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20100405210225.GW6084@digitalkingdom.org> <4BBDECA2.5000500@lojban.org> <4BBE0713.6030903@lojban.org> <20100409002127.GA11541@digitalkingdom.org> From: Christopher Doty Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 10:37:54 -0700 Received: by 10.101.152.19 with SMTP id e19mr437664ano.98.1270834694102; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: [lojban-announcements] Essay on the future of Lojban, with a simple poll for the community. To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=suomichris@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: suomichris@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/c67f210addc06a0c X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/8e8cca8aa1c0baca Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c92a8c82a04f0483d14221 --001636c92a8c82a04f0483d14221 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 From lojban.org: - Lojban is designed to be used by people in *communication* with each other, and possibly in the future with computers. - Lojban is designed to be *culturally neutral*. - Lojban has an *unambiguous grammar*, which is based on the *principles of logic*. - Lojban has *phonetic spelling*, and unambiguous resolution of sounds into words. - Lojban is *simple* compared to natural languages; it is easy to learn. - Lojban's *1300 root words* can be easily combined to form a vocabulary of *millions of words*. - Lojban is regular; the rules of the language are *without exception*. - Lojban attempts to *remove restrictions* on creative and clear thought and communication. - Lojban has a *variety of uses*, ranging from the creative to the scientific, from the theoretical to the practical. Where in here is there anything about being mind-bending? There are, as I count them, seven things which imply that Lojban is trying to be accessible, easy to learn, etc., and in the last point, it is clearly point out that Lojban "has a variety of uses." If the use of Lojban is to bend minds, what does this list mean, and why is that item missing? On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 10:34, Matt Arnold wrote: > Christopher, > > Lojban has no goal of being widely used. It can be logical and > consistent while also being mindbendingly unusable. That is its past, > current, and continuing plan. > > -Matt > > On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 1:32 PM, Christopher Doty > wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 17:21, Robin Lee Powell < > rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> > > wrote: > >> > >> Acutally, no, I meant exactly what I said: Lojban was formed to test > >> the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, and while that's largely irrelevant to > >> me, it *is* important to me, and many other people, that Lojban is > >> not like any natural languages in a lot of respects. Makes it all > >> mind-stretching and stuff. > > > > This is an interesting issue, I think, because I see the idea of > > "mind-bending stuff," while certainly very cool, to be diametrically > opposed > > to any hope of having Lojban widely adopted as an > > international/auxiliary/talking-to-computers/whatever language--there are > > plenty of things that natural languages do which are plenty mind-bending > to > > speakers of English, but they don't violate general principles of what > > languages do and what they don't do, while Lojban does in any number of > > respects. > > If Lojban wants to be mind-bending, awesome. If it wants to be a language > > which is logical and consistent, and thus primed to make in-roads in > being > > widely used, also awesome. But it can't do both of those things. > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --001636c92a8c82a04f0483d14221 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From lojban.org:

  • Lojban = is designed to be used by people in=A0communication=A0with= each other, and possibly in the future with computers.
  • Lojban is designed to be=A0culturally neutral.
    • Lojban has an=A0unambiguous grammar, which is based on th= e=A0principles of logic.
  • Lojban has=A0phon= etic spelling, and unambiguous resolution of sounds into words.
  • Lojban is=A0simple=A0compared to natural languages; it= is easy to learn.
  • Lojban's=A01300 root words= =A0can be easily combined to form a vocabulary of=A0millions of wor= ds.
  • Lojban is regular; the rules of the language are=A0without exce= ption.
  • Lojban attempts to=A0remove restrictions=A0on creative and clear thought and communication.
  • Lojban ha= s a=A0variety of uses, ranging from the creative to the sc= ientific, from the theoretical to the practical.
Where in here is there anything about being mind-bending? =A0Ther= e are, as I count them, seven things which imply that Lojban is trying to b= e accessible, easy to learn, etc., and in the last point, it is clearly poi= nt out that Lojban "has a variety of uses." =A0If the use of Lojb= an is to bend minds, what does this list mean, and why is that item missing= ?

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 10:34, Matt Ar= nold <matt.m= attarn@gmail.com> wrote:
Christopher,

Lojban has no goal of being widely used. It can be logical and
consistent while also being mindbendingly unusable. That is its past,
current, and continuing plan.

-Matt

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 1:32 PM, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 17:21, Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org>
> wrote:
>>
>> Acutally, no, I meant exactly what I said: Lojban was formed to te= st
>> the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, and while that's largely irrelevan= t to
>> me, it *is* important to me, and many other people, that Lojban is=
>> not like any natural languages in a lot of respects. =A0Makes it a= ll
>> mind-stretching and stuff.
>
> This is an interesting issue, I think, because I see the idea of
> "mind-bending stuff," while certainly very cool, to be diame= trically opposed
> to any hope of having Lojban widely adopted as an
> international/auxiliary/talking-to-computers/whatever language--there = are
> plenty of things that natural languages do which are plenty mind-bendi= ng to
> speakers of English, but they don't violate general principles of = what
> languages do and what they don't do, while Lojban does in any numb= er of
> respects.
> If Lojban wants to be mind-bending, awesome. If it wants to be a langu= age
> which is logical and consistent, and thus primed to make in-roads in b= eing
> widely used, also awesome. =A0But it can't do both of those things= .
>
> --
> You received this message because yo= u are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubs= cribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>

--
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--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
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