From lojban+bncCIXohuTaHxCpzv3dBBoEpocM5A@googlegroups.com Fri Apr 09 10:43:35 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O0IEp-0003Gm-0Q for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:43:34 -0700 Received: by gwj21 with SMTP id 21sf1672058gwj.16 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:43:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=aIWNrFkpDLmYii06YoI7Tw1aTaC8xrGpsZoGKeQMcAk=; b=09OXwPelLkAw/iMcZyudOap4YnuQXToA0aIi6NVaRadhF0a+pE4qwlZ7C8QkGfyyyE jsKWREolegDHVrABAJlycK4qM6w38GeRT1W1a0foeRkxRVkSqgXww8QHe4aLPlf+X8OI 93cjO5cxzivhnNzi1axiqbHLHuEPX6tzgnAJM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=v8ZtWpoL53+uB1c/kfsiYDF8cC49TxBjEE9Dcco83P6vZCS7X1DAu0i5YLcViBQkGK sujAOUq/x+GhOXYdntiNURjUsCriHveRatsRLC9l1lmkDMtlAMX/Q9Iucyy1/BzEVv0C hhbNWKyfRZZX65VywNvPB5sI6c15ONrPGBua0= Received: by 10.91.185.15 with SMTP id m15mr96858agp.49.1270834985671; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:43:05 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.187.210 with SMTP id cx18ls199951ibb.0.p; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:43:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.190.134 with SMTP id di6mr55018ibb.15.1270834983702; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.190.134 with SMTP id di6mr55017ibb.15.1270834983630; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iw0-f192.google.com (mail-iw0-f192.google.com [209.85.223.192]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si234338iwn.3.2010.04.09.10.43.02; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of matt.mattarn@gmail.com designates 209.85.223.192 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.223.192; Received: by mail-iw0-f192.google.com with SMTP id 30so2416142iwn.28 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:43:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.3.1 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 10:43:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20100405210225.GW6084@digitalkingdom.org> <4BBDECA2.5000500@lojban.org> <4BBE0713.6030903@lojban.org> <20100409002127.GA11541@digitalkingdom.org> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 13:43:02 -0400 Received: by 10.142.122.11 with SMTP id u11mr311645wfc.227.1270834982465; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: [lojban-announcements] Essay on the future of Lojban, with a simple poll for the community. From: Matt Arnold To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of matt.mattarn@gmail.com designates 209.85.223.192 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=matt.mattarn@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: matt.mattarn@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/c67f210addc06a0c X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/d65a8a73ab4014cc Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Christopher, I no longer believe most of that list is true. Making it true would require leaving behind the predicate grammar, resulting in a language so new as to be almost unidentifiable as belonging in the Lojban family. -Matt On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Christopher Doty wro= te: > From lojban.org: > > Lojban is designed to be used by people in=A0communication=A0with each ot= her, > and possibly in the future with computers. > Lojban is designed to be=A0culturally neutral. > Lojban has an=A0unambiguous grammar, which is based on the=A0principles o= f > logic. > Lojban has=A0phonetic spelling, and unambiguous resolution of sounds into > words. > Lojban is=A0simple=A0compared to natural languages; it is easy to learn. > Lojban's=A01300 root words=A0can be easily combined to form a vocabulary > of=A0millions of words. > Lojban is regular; the rules of the language are=A0without exception. > Lojban attempts to=A0remove restrictions=A0on creative and clear thought = and > communication. > Lojban has a=A0variety of uses, ranging from the creative to the scientif= ic, > from the theoretical to the practical. > > Where in here is there anything about being mind-bending? =A0There are, a= s I > count them, seven things which imply that Lojban is trying to be accessib= le, > easy to learn, etc., and in the last point, it is clearly point out that > Lojban "has a variety of uses." =A0If the use of Lojban is to bend minds,= what > does this list mean, and why is that item missing? > On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 10:34, Matt Arnold wrote: >> >> Christopher, >> >> Lojban has no goal of being widely used. It can be logical and >> consistent while also being mindbendingly unusable. That is its past, >> current, and continuing plan. >> >> -Matt >> >> On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 1:32 PM, Christopher Doty >> wrote: >> > On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 17:21, Robin Lee Powell >> > >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> Acutally, no, I meant exactly what I said: Lojban was formed to test >> >> the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, and while that's largely irrelevant to >> >> me, it *is* important to me, and many other people, that Lojban is >> >> not like any natural languages in a lot of respects. =A0Makes it all >> >> mind-stretching and stuff. >> > >> > This is an interesting issue, I think, because I see the idea of >> > "mind-bending stuff," while certainly very cool, to be diametrically >> > opposed >> > to any hope of having Lojban widely adopted as an >> > international/auxiliary/talking-to-computers/whatever language--there >> > are >> > plenty of things that natural languages do which are plenty mind-bendi= ng >> > to >> > speakers of English, but they don't violate general principles of what >> > languages do and what they don't do, while Lojban does in any number o= f >> > respects. >> > If Lojban wants to be mind-bending, awesome. If it wants to be a >> > language >> > which is logical and consistent, and thus primed to make in-roads in >> > being >> > widely used, also awesome. =A0But it can't do both of those things. >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> > Groups >> > "lojban" group. >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > For more options, visit this group at >> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.