From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhDd0f3dBBoE9wJQMQ@googlegroups.com Fri Apr 09 10:50:50 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O0ILq-0003ah-Gq for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:50:48 -0700 Received: by gwj21 with SMTP id 21sf1674072gwj.16 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:50:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=r4WY3XtYqNkK92q+E97px8z6TLiNg9mdWlJhhPiGkDM=; b=W40Pd6rmBIibNXikaShf+bO7bvsblT+2ZHHk+RCjY2w7gsGoRUcjBFP1Hvqy3hbcO3 UBGYDr+s6Mn8BcqMXGaZMEA6FcS6jjg5ZZj6ParSSpmF85ZJdrWV4OaWoTl7nx3O4ENU UExNfE4DVO0xXXgM+827zzCUMsUcRxh5zQHFU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=uB7VvWiuohxT8gUb8fczEyBsRKTHzYw6Xu2WsRMyDubvuTR/YOgFfDzkpQ6nS96GSQ 0s6e8Ii8AHhtesDEYTGghDy1i4+Ua6+RV8gaHNou+2jff22aumeAVaaCJYmEWj1nCA/d tMJqlwxquL2ZOfD+BIKe6EeDxC0l/8JNVdiF0= Received: by 10.101.139.35 with SMTP id r35mr31414ann.38.1270835421626; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:50:21 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.35.68 with SMTP id o4ls357113bkd.1.p; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:50:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.137.151 with SMTP id w23mr28240bkt.28.1270835419918; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:50:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.137.151 with SMTP id w23mr28239bkt.28.1270835419833; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:50:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f170.google.com (mail-wy0-f170.google.com [74.125.82.170]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id h3si1673538bke.0.2010.04.09.10.50.18; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:50:18 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.170 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.170; Received: by mail-wy0-f170.google.com with SMTP id 34so538378wyb.29 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:50:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.30.146 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 10:50:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4BBF505B.2050705@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 11:50:18 -0600 Received: by 10.216.90.135 with SMTP id e7mr226236wef.34.1270835418538; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:50:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Cultural fu'ivla: summary and list of the ISO generated ones From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/f66e2fdee6af20a6 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/d6a5cd70dc8cabcd Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d99b09b0a39f0483d16d3c --0016e6d99b09b0a39f0483d16d3c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Considering that this discussion started out as "the cultural gismu are are bad idea and should be replaced", I honestly don't care what people choose to call any of those things. The reasons given as to why the aforesaid gism= u are a bad idea are twofold: 1) Having gismu for some cultures and not others is biased, and therefore violates the "culturally neutral" stance of Lojban. The only acceptable solution to this is to either have a word for *all* cultures, or to not hav= e a word for *any* of them. I support the latter: lujvo and fu'ivla are open space, let jbopre create the word they want to use *when they need it*. 2) The cultural gismu basically have too many meanings. For example, {merko= } means "x1 pertains to USA/American culture/nationality/dialect in aspect x2". The solution to this is to separate the various bits into individual words, without reference to a specific culture. I offered my suggestion (th= e lujvo I posted earlier) as to what words to use instead of the gismu. As far as I'm concerned, *it doesn't matter* what words to use for the languages/countries/cultures/what-have-you, as long as the people can understand what you're talking about. On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Christopher Doty wro= te: > I am still absolutely, one hundred percent opposed to the idea of having > 7,000 words with an identical first syllable for related concepts. This = is > not how language works, and it is not how the human brain works. > > Jorge brought up an example previously of things (something) like "Icelan= d, > Swaziland, etc." to point out that words having the same morpheme in the > same place wasn't an issue. But, again, this is demonstrably NOT how > languages work. Having the same suffix on a word is not the same as havi= ng > the same prefix. Having the same prefix will make the words VERY hard to > learn. > > Chris > > > On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 09:05, Leo Molas wrote: > >> I did a list with the 3 ISO generated fu'ivla that where proposed: >> countries (ISO 3166), languages (ISO 639-3) and currencies (ISO 4217). >> >> The script also generates a jbovlaste-like definitions, separated with >> ';', so I created a table (like .csc), and upload it to google docs. (If >> you are not confortable using it, you can download the file in several >> different formats.) I did this because the idea is to mass upload them; >> I asked Robin if he can do that, and he only needed that the files had >> that format. >> >> My idea is to discuss now if there is something wrong with the >> definitions. You can change little things if you feel it, and if you >> want to change something in all the definitions, tell me and I'll change >> it in the script. Those files are going to be the ones I give Robin to >> upload to jbovlaste. >> >> The columns are: >> >> - valsi >> - definition >> - Prefix (I don't know if this should go there.) >> - gloss word (this can be changed) >> - in the sense of (this too) >> >> The last points are where I feel insecure. I can also make a column with >> "comments", telling that this are ISO generated or whatever... and can >> also have a link to other word meaning the same (like mergu'e in >> gugde'usu). >> >> The files are: >> >> >> http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=3D0Ai4mbIPr2PUwdENVckVaOTJLbVdGVE= 5SeGJ0MTBTbGc&hl=3Den >> : countries (247 fu'ivla) and currencies (172) >> >> >> http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=3D0Ai4mbIPr2PUwdGNYUFhrdmV1cmpLeV= VQZkNSU3dBYUE&hl=3Den >> : languages part 1 (from =EF=BB=BFbanga'a'a to banlukusu, 3687 fu'ivla) >> >> >> http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=3D0Ai4mbIPr2PUwdC1ENjlQTmZ1ZjlidF= AwWDdvZDBUUWc&hl=3Den >> : languages part 2 (from banlukutu to banzuzuju, 4232 fu'ivla) >> >> That gives us a total of 8338 fu'ivla .uesai >> >> I know it's a really huge number, but this may be really useful .ui >> >> mu'o mi'e .leos. >> >> >> -- >> My lojban journal: http://learninglojban.wordpress.com >> My personal blog: http://leomolas.tumblr.com >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016e6d99b09b0a39f0483d16d3c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Considering that this discussion started out as "the cultural gismu ar= e are bad idea and should be replaced", I honestly don't care what= people choose to call any of those things. The reasons given as to why the= aforesaid gismu are a bad idea are twofold:

1) Having gismu for some cultures and not others is biased, and therefo= re violates the "culturally neutral" stance of Lojban. The only a= cceptable solution to this is to either have a word for *all* cultures, or = to not have a word for *any* of them. I support the latter: lujvo and fu= 9;ivla are open space, let jbopre create the word they want to use *when th= ey need it*.

2) The cultural gismu basically have too many meanings. For example, {m= erko} means "x1 pertains to USA/American culture/nationality/dialect i= n aspect x2". The solution to this is to separate the various bits int= o individual words, without reference to a specific culture. I offered my s= uggestion (the lujvo I posted earlier) as to what words to use instead of t= he gismu.

As far as I'm concerned, *it doesn't matter* what words to use = for the languages/countries/cultures/what-have-you, as long as the people c= an understand what you're talking about.

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com> wr= ote:
I am still absolutely, one hundred percent opposed to the idea of having 7,= 000 words with an identical first syllable for related concepts. =C2=A0This= is not how language works, and it is not how the human brain works.
Jorge brought up an example previously of things (something) lik= e "Iceland, Swaziland, etc." to point out that words having the s= ame morpheme in the same place wasn't an issue. =C2=A0But, again, this = is demonstrably NOT how languages work. =C2=A0Having the same suffix on a w= ord is not the same as having the same prefix. =C2=A0Having the same prefix= will make the words VERY hard to learn.

Chris


On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 09:05, Leo Molas <leos.molas@= gmail.com> wrote:
I did a list with the 3 ISO generated fu'ivla that where proposed:
countries (ISO 3166), languages (ISO 639-3) and currencies (ISO 4217).

The script also generates a jbovlaste-like definitions, separated with
';', so I created a table (like .csc), and upload it to google docs= . (If
you are not confortable using it, you can download the file in several
different formats.) I did this because the idea is to mass upload them;
I asked Robin if he can do that, and he only needed that the files had
that format.

My idea is to discuss now if there is something wrong with the
definitions. You can change little things if you feel it, and if you
want to change something in all the definitions, tell me and I'll chang= e
it in the script. Those files are going to be the ones I give Robin to
upload to jbovlaste.

The columns are:

- valsi
- definition
- Prefix (I don't know if this should go there.)
- gloss word (this can be changed)
- in the sense of (this too)

The last points are where I feel insecure. I can also make a column with "comments", telling that this are ISO generated or whatever... an= d can
also have a link to other word meaning the same (like mergu'e in gugde&= #39;usu).

The files are:

http://spreadsheets.go= ogle.com/ccc?key=3D0Ai4mbIPr2PUwdENVckVaOTJLbVdGVE5SeGJ0MTBTbGc&hl=3Den=
: countries (247 fu'ivla) and currencies (172)

http://spreadsheets.go= ogle.com/ccc?key=3D0Ai4mbIPr2PUwdGNYUFhrdmV1cmpLeVVQZkNSU3dBYUE&hl=3Den=
: languages part 1 (from =EF=BB=BFbanga'a'a to banlukusu, 3687 fu&#= 39;ivla)

http://spreadsheets.go= ogle.com/ccc?key=3D0Ai4mbIPr2PUwdC1ENjlQTmZ1ZjlidFAwWDdvZDBUUWc&hl=3Den=
: languages part 2 (from banlukutu to banzuzuju, 4232 fu'ivla)

That gives us a total of 8338 fu'ivla .uesai

I know it's a really huge number, but this may be really useful .ui

mu'o mi'e .leos.


--
My lojban journal: http://learninglojban.wordpress.com
My personal blog: = http://leomolas.tumblr.com


--
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To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi'= e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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