From lojban+bncCJ2w4Zy_AhD71P3dBBoEgncAvA@googlegroups.com Fri Apr 09 10:57:43 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f140.google.com ([209.85.210.140]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O0ISX-0003vr-00 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:57:42 -0700 Received: by yxe4 with SMTP id 4sf1655367yxe.28 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:57:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:received:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=b2P1JvPKfIooIxBRqxwJGYBEfAlx9r49Dr6wKrsc188=; b=It2u5Ny3Yv4JHzd2qQGZSz3fq9ZaToVsicae4z8UtKo1ZBBug4mXAbM+r42RQE9KD6 cME0+SHu6oIw7S4f0kLq6qVr45tK1xyceBQAn2clO7NXN4f2bWUY2UdHX4OcKbrNJCcj D9ZxnOL1gIKn2mAi6H16iIVoIcXgG7K4CF6ME= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=NS4ylN+Fgw1cmWrdehI+y22bcb/Ov3eslmrDs6nIg+abShpOHGqePDnfwFOQNbIOwX eWgbIyF6G2DHI8mFkhkpjGvPgKL/86tU7WrneHF3zw9eBPWwwDtuSRWkc0PxpoOwHg4E gWOKfZqXgUCT9kJddTApAFnyEyt/zHUlVmZqA= Received: by 10.91.56.20 with SMTP id i20mr110870agk.22.1270835835619; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:57:15 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.66.23 with SMTP id t23ls81128agk.6.p; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:57:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.20.28 with SMTP id 28mr719565agt.7.1270835830778; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:57:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.20.28 with SMTP id 28mr719441agt.7.1270835826754; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:57:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f173.google.com (mail-yx0-f173.google.com [209.85.210.173]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 24si142262ywh.6.2010.04.09.10.57.05; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:57:05 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.173 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.173; Received: by yxe3 with SMTP id 3so1142564yxe.1 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:57:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.5.20 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 10:56:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20100405210225.GW6084@digitalkingdom.org> <4BBE0713.6030903@lojban.org> <20100409002127.GA11541@digitalkingdom.org> From: Christopher Doty Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 10:56:44 -0700 Received: by 10.100.25.34 with SMTP id 34mr383377any.187.1270835825433; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:57:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: [lojban-announcements] Essay on the future of Lojban, with a simple poll for the community. To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.173 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=suomichris@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: suomichris@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/c67f210addc06a0c X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/5377ce218065d3c0 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6468feaf161930483d18561 --0016e6468feaf161930483d18561 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I fail to see how your think leaving behind the predicate grammar would be necessary to make Lojban non-mind-bending... It isn't all that mind-bending right now; one or two small changes, which would preserve the current structure/logical/lack of ambiguity would be sufficient to bring it into line with how human language works... On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 10:43, Matt Arnold wrote: > Christopher, > > I no longer believe most of that list is true. Making it true would > require leaving behind the predicate grammar, resulting in a language > so new as to be almost unidentifiable as belonging in the Lojban > family. > > -Matt > > On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Christopher Doty > wrote: > > From lojban.org: > > > > Lojban is designed to be used by people in communication with each other, > > and possibly in the future with computers. > > Lojban is designed to be culturally neutral. > > Lojban has an unambiguous grammar, which is based on the principles of > > logic. > > Lojban has phonetic spelling, and unambiguous resolution of sounds into > > words. > > Lojban is simple compared to natural languages; it is easy to learn. > > Lojban's 1300 root words can be easily combined to form a vocabulary > > of millions of words. > > Lojban is regular; the rules of the language are without exception. > > Lojban attempts to remove restrictions on creative and clear thought and > > communication. > > Lojban has a variety of uses, ranging from the creative to the > scientific, > > from the theoretical to the practical. > > > > Where in here is there anything about being mind-bending? There are, as > I > > count them, seven things which imply that Lojban is trying to be > accessible, > > easy to learn, etc., and in the last point, it is clearly point out that > > Lojban "has a variety of uses." If the use of Lojban is to bend minds, > what > > does this list mean, and why is that item missing? > > On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 10:34, Matt Arnold > wrote: > >> > >> Christopher, > >> > >> Lojban has no goal of being widely used. It can be logical and > >> consistent while also being mindbendingly unusable. That is its past, > >> current, and continuing plan. > >> > >> -Matt > >> > >> On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 1:32 PM, Christopher Doty > >> wrote: > >> > On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 17:21, Robin Lee Powell > >> > > >> > wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Acutally, no, I meant exactly what I said: Lojban was formed to test > >> >> the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, and while that's largely irrelevant to > >> >> me, it *is* important to me, and many other people, that Lojban is > >> >> not like any natural languages in a lot of respects. Makes it all > >> >> mind-stretching and stuff. > >> > > >> > This is an interesting issue, I think, because I see the idea of > >> > "mind-bending stuff," while certainly very cool, to be diametrically > >> > opposed > >> > to any hope of having Lojban widely adopted as an > >> > international/auxiliary/talking-to-computers/whatever language--there > >> > are > >> > plenty of things that natural languages do which are plenty > mind-bending > >> > to > >> > speakers of English, but they don't violate general principles of what > >> > languages do and what they don't do, while Lojban does in any number > of > >> > respects. > >> > If Lojban wants to be mind-bending, awesome. If it wants to be a > >> > language > >> > which is logical and consistent, and thus primed to make in-roads in > >> > being > >> > widely used, also awesome. But it can't do both of those things. > >> > > >> > -- > >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> > Groups > >> > "lojban" group. > >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > >> > For more options, visit this group at > >> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > >> > > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "lojban" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > >> > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016e6468feaf161930483d18561 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I fail to see how your think leaving behind the predicate grammar would be = necessary to make Lojban non-mind-bending... =A0It isn't all that mind-= bending right now; one or two small changes, which would preserve the curre= nt structure/logical/lack of ambiguity would be sufficient to bring it into= line with how human language works...

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 10:43, Matt Arnold <matt.mattarn@= gmail.com> wrote:
Christopher,

I no longer believe most of that list is true. Making it true would
require leaving behind the predicate grammar, resulting in a language
so new as to be almost unidentifiable as belonging in the Lojban
family.

-Matt

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com> wrote:
> From lojban.org: >
> Lojban is designed to be used by people in=A0communication=A0with each= other,
> and possibly in the future with computers.
> Lojban is designed to be=A0culturally neutral.
> Lojban has an=A0unambiguous grammar, which is based on the=A0principle= s of
> logic.
> Lojban has=A0phonetic spelling, and unambiguous resolution of sounds i= nto
> words.
> Lojban is=A0simple=A0compared to natural languages; it is easy to lear= n.
> Lojban's=A01300 root words=A0can be easily combined to form a voca= bulary
> of=A0millions of words.
> Lojban is regular; the rules of the language are=A0without exception.<= br> > Lojban attempts to=A0remove restrictions=A0on creative and clear thoug= ht and
> communication.
> Lojban has a=A0variety of uses, ranging from the creative to the scien= tific,
> from the theoretical to the practical.
>
> Where in here is there anything about being mind-bending? =A0There are= , as I
> count them, seven things which imply that Lojban is trying to be acces= sible,
> easy to learn, etc., and in the last point, it is clearly point out th= at
> Lojban "has a variety of uses." =A0If the use of Lojban is t= o bend minds, what
> does this list mean, and why is that item missing?
> On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 10:34, Matt Arnold <matt.mattarn@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Christopher,
>>
>> Lojban has no goal of being widely used. It can be logical and
>> consistent while also being mindbendingly unusable. That is its pa= st,
>> current, and continuing plan.
>>
>> -Matt
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 1:32 PM, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 17:21, Robin Lee Powell
>> > <rlpowell@d= igitalkingdom.org>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Acutally, no, I meant exactly what I said: Lojban was for= med to test
>> >> the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, and while that's largely = irrelevant to
>> >> me, it *is* important to me, and many other people, that = Lojban is
>> >> not like any natural languages in a lot of respects. =A0M= akes it all
>> >> mind-stretching and stuff.
>> >
>> > This is an interesting issue, I think, because I see the idea= of
>> > "mind-bending stuff," while certainly very cool, to= be diametrically
>> > opposed
>> > to any hope of having Lojban widely adopted as an
>> > international/auxiliary/talking-to-computers/whatever languag= e--there
>> > are
>> > plenty of things that natural languages do which are plenty m= ind-bending
>> > to
>> > speakers of English, but they don't violate general princ= iples of what
>> > languages do and what they don't do, while Lojban does in= any number of
>> > respects.
>> > If Lojban wants to be mind-bending, awesome. If it wants to b= e a
>> > language
>> > which is logical and consistent, and thus primed to make in-r= oads in
>> > being
>> > widely used, also awesome. =A0But it can't do both of tho= se things.
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle
>> > Groups
>> > "lojban" group.
>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> > lojb= an+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> > For more options, visit this group at
>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>> >
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups
>> "lojban" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubs= cribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
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--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
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