From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCn2v3dBBoENapDjQ@googlegroups.com Fri Apr 09 11:09:06 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O0IdY-00058V-Oa for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 11:09:06 -0700 Received: by vws5 with SMTP id 5sf3148237vws.16 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 11:08:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=BIZrjnOFayKPR0S7kpgm99Mkv21jO2f613rjShCIrRE=; b=YQL16ZAZp8/w4nOp97osXqjiMb9zdHR0Iw8PacM9kU3IzQ64uGsSKVv+RAnsX/BN48 09wvTqQv/9aLnEdyhZp/EHaGqlI3WsSRZefTd7txd/l8LcOT0kqv8e3Ww8sezLkXvLIc +qp1TTu5xf+AgLXC3dM5jS+J34S5XrUgcqknI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; b=gmerpqtMBOnn73VbAZHxWOV1bpTu9PzhVnH5oFFREw5jge9xIZ/Hx1Mvg2hmBtQICr rPjjDIs/fOfUd4T6evX6x3iPvHQIJlIE/O6surXcgWhtik68UQE/1o5a7F3ayOkYrRdJ NXg1VqhKS2JCukTkW9k381Z6HcF8zGyvg2esg= Received: by 10.220.126.222 with SMTP id d30mr36029vcs.49.1270836519592; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 11:08:39 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.79.22 with SMTP id n22ls139432vck.3.p; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 11:08:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.165.85 with SMTP id h21mr110686vcy.12.1270836517457; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 11:08:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.165.85 with SMTP id h21mr110684vcy.12.1270836517391; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 11:08:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.121]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id 29si3734051vws.2.2010.04.09.11.08.36; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 11:08:36 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.121 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.121; Received: (qmail 22778 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Apr 2010 18:08:35 -0000 Message-ID: <867212.21796.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: vaZe.ccVM1nV.z5Hh5EGF9XZ6Y1iRSekD.2zos_xYgfhf1x uv6AUCAzijDdOmrvJFSVsWU8msn8lL9jkQjGWFtWIVDJfkBe4VhnVYUEOJcr BHiQzpdVEbS3.Q_E5tzB5b1qD2wFJidajHK57_aqpxp1wwokVnEY59I..3xN Lv3oMSQCdr33wDRtW.2g4h..SgOO..9bEGo8E_woKEjMAd6CQEQSnMGc0JP_ uJqzSw.Zi9ZSdtw.rApO2jj54k2QpVj_04pRMu.MrvIOdn4YMr9pY74P2LuC 1xa2cAY3HAMASzgRMaFxDCJUesWY7.F00CayAuXzWHiQXyuB2RJvIHj6qrTI aQwUt5ptUlW_c Received: from [71.14.73.129] by web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 11:08:35 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/348.3 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 References: <20100405210225.GW6084@digitalkingdom.org> <4BBE0713.6030903@lojban.org> <20100409002127.GA11541@digitalkingdom.org> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 11:08:35 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: [lojban-announcements] Essay on the future of Lojban, with a simple poll for the community. To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.121 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/c67f210addc06a0c X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/edaa61f8d87bfd9e Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2037393786-1270836515=:21796" --0-2037393786-1270836515=:21796 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It might be useful to list the ways in which Lojban fails to meet human lan= guage standards. I personally can't think of one (even xorlo has, alas, hu= man analogs). Remember that at least one school of linguists think that al= l sentences in any natural language are merely transforms of predicate logi= c sentences, with minor loss of information. ________________________________ From: Christopher Doty To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Fri, April 9, 2010 12:56:44 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: [lojban-announcements] Essay on the future of Lo= jban, with a simple poll for the community. I fail to see how your think leaving behind the predicate grammar would be = necessary to make Lojban non-mind-bending... It isn't all that mind-bendin= g right now; one or two small changes, which would preserve the current str= ucture/logical/lack of ambiguity would be sufficient to bring it into line = with how human language works... On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 10:43, Matt Arnold wrote: > >Christopher, > >>I no longer believe most of that list is true. Making it true would >>require leaving behind the predicate grammar, resulting in a language >>so new as to be almost unidentifiable as belonging in the Lojban >>family. > >>-Matt > > >>On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Christopher Doty w= rote: >>> From lojban.org: >>> >>> Lojban is designed to be used by people in communication with each othe= r, >>> and possibly in the future with computers. >>> Lojban is designed to be culturally neutral. >>> Lojban has an unambiguous grammar, which is based on the principles of >>> logic. >>> Lojban has phonetic spelling, and unambiguous resolution of sounds into >>> words. >>> Lojban is simple compared to natural languages; it is easy to learn. >>> Lojban's 1300 root words can be easily combined to form a vocabulary >>> of millions of words. >>> Lojban is regular; the rules of the language are without exception. >>> Lojban attempts to remove restrictions on creative and clear thought an= d >>> communication. >>> Lojban has a variety of uses, ranging from the creative to the scientif= ic, >>> from the theoretical to the practical. >>> >>> Where in here is there anything about being mind-bending? There are, a= s I >>> count them, seven things which imply that Lojban is trying to be access= ible, >>> easy to learn, etc., and in the last point, it is clearly point out tha= t >>> Lojban "has a variety of uses." If the use of Lojban is to bend minds,= what >>> does this list mean, and why is that item missing? >>> On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 10:34, Matt Arnold wrot= e: >>>> >>>> Christopher, >>>> >>>> Lojban has no goal of being widely used. It can be logical and >>>> consistent while also being mindbendingly unusable. That is its past, >>>> current, and continuing plan. >>>> >>>> -Matt >>>> >>>> On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 1:32 PM, Christopher Doty >>>> wrote: >>>> > On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 17:21, Robin Lee Powell >>>> > >>>> > wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> Acutally, no, I meant exactly what I said: Lojban was formed to tes= t >>>> >> the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, and while that's largely irrelevant to >>>> >> me, it *is* important to me, and many other people, that Lojban is >>>> >> not like any natural languages in a lot of respects. Makes it all >>>> >> mind-stretching and stuff. >>>> > >>>> > This is an interesting issue, I think, because I see the idea of >>>> > "mind-bending stuff," while certainly very cool, to be diametrically >>>> > opposed >>>> > to any hope of having Lojban widely adopted as an >>>> > international/auxiliary/talking-to-computers/whatever language--ther= e >>>> > are >>>> > plenty of things that natural languages do which are plenty mind-ben= ding >>>> > to >>>> > speakers of English, but they don't violate general principles of wh= at >>>> > languages do and what they don't do, while Lojban does in any number= of >>>> > respects. >>>> > If Lojban wants to be mind-bending, awesome. If it wants to be a >>>> > language >>>> > which is logical and consistent, and thus primed to make in-roads in >>>> > being >>>> > widely used, also awesome. But it can't do both of those things. >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> > Groups >>>> > "lojban" group. >>>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> > For more options, visit this group at >>>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >>>> > >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups >>>> "lojban" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >>> > >>-- >>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. >>To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. >>For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0-2037393786-1270836515=:21796 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It might be useful to list the ways in which Lojban fails= to meet human language standards.  I personally can't think of one (e= ven xorlo has, alas, human analogs).  Remember that at least one schoo= l of linguists think that all sentences in any natural language are merely = transforms of predicate logic sentences, with minor loss of information.

= From: Christopher Doty <= ;suomichris@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sen= t: Fri, April 9, 2010 12:56:44 PM
Su= bject: Re: [lojban] Re: [lojban-announcements] Essay on the futu= re of Lojban, with a simple poll for the community.

I fail to see how your think leaving behind the predicate grammar would be = necessary to make Lojban non-mind-bending...  It isn't all that mind-b= ending right now; one or two small changes, which would preserve the curren= t structure/logical/lack of ambiguity would be sufficient to bring it into = line with how human language works...

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 10:43, Matt Arnold <matt.mattar= n@gmail.com> wrote:
Christopher,

I no longer believe most of that list is true. Making it true would
require leaving behind the predicate grammar, resulting in a language
so new as to be almost unidentifiable as belonging in the Lojban
family.

-Matt

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com> wrote:
> From = lojban.org:
>
> Lojban is designed to be used by people in communication wit= h each other,
> and possibly in the future with computers.
> Lojban is designed to be culturally neutral.
> Lojban has an unambiguous grammar, which is based on the pri= nciples of
> logic.
> Lojban has phonetic spelling, and unambiguous resolution of sound= s into
> words.
> Lojban is simple compared to natural languages; it is easy t= o learn.
> Lojban's 1300 root words can be easily combined to form a vo= cabulary
> of millions of words.
> Lojban is regular; the rules of the language are without exceptio= n.
> Lojban attempts to remove restrictions on creative and clear= thought and
> communication.
> Lojban has a variety of uses, ranging from the creative to the sc= ientific,
> from the theoretical to the practical.
>
> Where in here is there anything about being mind-bending?  There = are, as I
> count them, seven things which imply that Lojban is trying to be acces= sible,
> easy to learn, etc., and in the last point, it is clearly point out th= at
> Lojban "has a variety of uses."  If the use of Lojban is to bend = minds, what
> does this list mean, and why is that item missing?
> On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 10:34, Matt Arnold <matt.mattarn@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Christopher,
>>
>> Lojban has no goal of being widely used. It can be logical and
>> consistent while also being mindbendingly unusable. That is its pa= st,
>> current, and continuing plan.
>>
>> -Matt
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 1:32 PM, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 17:21, Robin Lee Powell
>> > <rlp= owell@digitalkingdom.org>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Acutally, no, I meant exactly what I said: Lojban was for= med to test
>> >> the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, and while that's largely irre= levant to
>> >> me, it *is* important to me, and many other people, that = Lojban is
>> >> not like any natural languages in a lot of respects. &nbs= p;Makes it all
>> >> mind-stretching and stuff.
>> >
>> > This is an interesting issue, I think, because I see the idea= of
>> > "mind-bending stuff," while certainly very cool, to be diamet= rically
>> > opposed
>> > to any hope of having Lojban widely adopted as an
>> > international/auxiliary/talking-to-computers/whatever languag= e--there
>> > are
>> > plenty of things that natural languages do which are plenty m= ind-bending
>> > to
>> > speakers of English, but they don't violate general principle= s of what
>> > languages do and what they don't do, while Lojban does in any= number of
>> > respects.
>> > If Lojban wants to be mind-bending, awesome. If it wants to b= e a
>> > language
>> > which is logical and consistent, and thus primed to make in-r= oads in
>> > being
>> > widely used, also awesome.  But it can't do both of thos= e things.
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle
>> > Groups
>> > "lojban" group.
>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> > For more options, visit this group at
>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> >
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups
>> "lojban" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegro= ups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.googl= e.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.


--
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<= br>

--
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