From lojban+bncCJ2w4Zy_AhD2if7dBBoEovRExg@googlegroups.com Fri Apr 09 12:50:41 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f198.google.com ([209.85.217.198]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O0KDt-0004a4-4w for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 12:50:41 -0700 Received: by gxk22 with SMTP id 22sf371426gxk.4 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 12:50:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:received:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=AyNThJRo1SZGrO9JHWXBPdHrO3zFxtSyX7yDninfLt0=; b=umDLyak552kiIlxIRrM2lrPo1Su4z1kGZHJfJMbelqw1hCPz6If+mvIaVMXEV4Labi ulOiwTyku5lL4Ls/cq5c21Onfr10SS1/8ocwbBs1l91XkuyojjkrYDezLjZMAtDx0ljW 6rf/Mr7r9Ce/oP5Mr7yMQ5WksdyM2YJ8NUBtQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=uXvvnNskNZarQgcxQrX1/l8XLn5kuDaKruvn+m3w/RaWiXHZhTc5cz18ViUfg26UoL SKF+1iWHPlT1dEQHExW4ZfHEJ3nJGmh9x4Ff+UzWarE0gejyIVDC2VOOpn/73gexrVAU mrha2IVgdcqIg4sXVrTbm2tYuCEifwn4x6Z1s= Received: by 10.91.56.20 with SMTP id i20mr132342agk.52.1270842615010; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 12:50:15 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.90.216.14 with SMTP id o14ls88643agg.5.p; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 12:50:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.9.19 with SMTP id 19mr1138827agi.4.1270842608418; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 12:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.9.19 with SMTP id 19mr1138688agi.4.1270842605675; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 12:50:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-f203.google.com (mail-yw0-f203.google.com [209.85.211.203]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 12si136827gxk.2.2010.04.09.12.50.04; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 12:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.211.203 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.211.203; Received: by ywh41 with SMTP id 41so1825751ywh.9 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 12:50:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.5.20 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 12:49:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4BBF505B.2050705@gmail.com> From: Christopher Doty Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 12:49:44 -0700 Received: by 10.100.233.36 with SMTP id f36mr830054anh.143.1270842604284; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 12:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Cultural fu'ivla: summary and list of the ISO generated ones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.211.203 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=suomichris@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: suomichris@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/f66e2fdee6af20a6 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/5bc7b3480df154f5 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636b2b826fe6d190483d31959 --001636b2b826fe6d190483d31959 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/4/9 Jorge Llamb=EDas > > Doesn't (Ki)Swahili name all languages with a ki- prefix? (This may be > yet another myth, like that all country names end in "gu=F3" in Chinese, > so I'm just asking, but I tend to be skeptical about claims that this > is "not how the human brain works".) > > But if this is demonstrably not how languages work, can you give some > pointers to the demonstration? The situation with Swahili (and other Bantu languages) is different for any number of reasons. First off, the language prefix exists as part of a system in which EVERY NOUN starts with a prefix that indicates its noun class. The prefixes thus exist as part of an entire system; it's not just something that language names do, it is something that all nouns everywhere in the language do. Plus, the prefixes on the nouns (or, more appropriately, the class of nouns to which a word belongs, which is indicated by the prefix) are used for a variety of syntactic functions--you can tell who is doing what to whom by virtue of prefixes that go on the verbs, which correspond to the noun classes that are marked on the nouns. In terms of "how the brain works," what I mean is that the brain processes speech linearly. But, as with everything in nature, the brain is also lazy= , and tries to use context to determine what is coming up. So, imagine that = I say, "The longest word in the English language is a..." At this point, your brain has already thrown out a bunch of possibilities. It's thrown out anything that doesn't start with /a/. It's also likely already thrown out short words, because I'm looking for something long. "Ant" is likely not part of the set of words that my brain is looking at. "...nt..." I still know it isn't ant, but now I also know what it starts with, and wha= t it doesn't. By the time I get to: "...idises..." You likely know what I'm going to say, assuming you've heard the word "antidisestablishmentarianism" before. And all that before I got half way through the word! There are any number of experiment verifications of this= : your brain processes language as it goes along, and if that information is not helpful or is not what it expected, it creates problems, because your brain now has to backtrack or, in the case of having language names start with the same thing, has to suddenly sort through the whole list, instead o= f having paired down in steps. My point with starting everything with some form of "bang" means that your brain will not be able to do anything at all to get any closer to what you were trying to say. Plus, it won't help me if we're in a loud room and I don't quite here what you said. If the first element was meaningful with a system, then it can help in both of those ways. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --001636b2b826fe6d190483d31959 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/4/9 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>

Doesn't (Ki)Swahili name all languages with a ki- prefix? (This m= ay be
yet another myth, like that all country names end in "gu=F3" in C= hinese,
so I'm just asking, but I tend to be skeptical about claims that this is "not how the human brain works".)

But if this is demonstrably not how languages work, can you give some
pointers to the demonstration?

The situatio= n with Swahili (and other Bantu languages) is different for any number of r= easons. =A0First off, the language prefix exists as part of a system in whi= ch EVERY NOUN starts with a prefix that indicates its noun class. =A0The pr= efixes thus exist as part of an entire system; it's not just something = that language names do, it is something that all nouns everywhere in the la= nguage do. =A0Plus, the prefixes on the nouns (or, more appropriately, the = class of nouns to which a word belongs, which is indicated by the prefix) a= re used for a variety of syntactic functions--you can tell who is doing wha= t to whom by virtue of prefixes that go on the verbs, which correspond to t= he noun classes that are marked on the nouns.

In terms of "how the brain works," what I mea= n is that the brain processes speech linearly. =A0But, as with everything i= n nature, the brain is also lazy, and tries to use context to determine wha= t is coming up. =A0So, imagine that I say, "The longest word in the En= glish language is a..."

At this point, your brain has already thrown out a bunc= h of possibilities. =A0It's thrown out anything that doesn't start = with /a/. =A0It's also likely already thrown out short words, because I= 'm looking for something long. =A0"Ant" is likely not part of= the set of words that my brain is looking at.

"...nt..."

I still k= now it isn't ant, but now I also know what it starts with, and what it = doesn't. By the time I get to:

"...idises= ..."

You likely know what I'm going to say, assuming you= 've heard the word "antidisestablishmentarianism" before. =A0= And all that before I got half way through the word! =A0There are any numbe= r of experiment verifications of this: your brain processes language as it = goes along, and if that information is not helpful or is not what it expect= ed, it creates problems, because your brain now has to backtrack or, in the= case of having language names start with the same thing, has to suddenly s= ort through the whole list, instead of having paired down in steps.

My point with starting everything with some form of &qu= ot;bang" means that your brain will not be able to do anything at all = to get any closer to what you were trying to say. =A0Plus, it won't hel= p me if we're in a loud room and I don't quite here what you said. = =A0If the first element was meaningful with a system, then it can help in b= oth of those ways.

--
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