From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRCinf7dBBoEm0v_Qg@googlegroups.com Fri Apr 09 13:31:56 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f137.google.com ([209.85.211.137]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O0Krp-0008Dt-A6 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 13:31:56 -0700 Received: by ywh1 with SMTP id 1sf548927ywh.28 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 13:31:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=y9PKCxPdqx5TX8RrYfthQ2Y2k8SdRKufrIlcoBl+sGk=; b=HWlHxDMMu7nZ32D4WXLEfboYlh5DGRulnac8Lq+0LSlgwcDY+c6hqQsRaBT4hEQUrR JpV6Nl57kKPQ8qLm2FSIjNXwDU1pAEDAJWZcoriNgZ136jIhi6ls4RnBKq9eNEZZCQMo /Zzc2CeCASnuYBhb2z2ZQYhcejLVtrOEoAvr0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=3byqsNkTaeD/uMF9I73o1hgXq1tC2mP2fELh9yKHgKzS+wbSbA6jSXElk3LvaFLCLY SHk6lHZO47UkmPRk/1GJBbF+93/QbH2SBTjjmsDjbPjUujzKmNIBtKJ4FTTEDzgmSbBe 8lrOd7bZdlqOdS3rGpZpJHi34dM+ef5j2na2k= Received: by 10.91.90.12 with SMTP id s12mr137279agl.37.1270845090589; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 13:31:30 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.32.206 with SMTP id e14ls409671bkd.2.p; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 13:31:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.161.203 with SMTP id s11mr40467bkx.36.1270845087754; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 13:31:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.161.203 with SMTP id s11mr40465bkx.36.1270845087662; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 13:31:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f184.google.com (mail-qy0-f184.google.com [209.85.221.184]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id e24si1824321bke.2.2010.04.09.13.31.26; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 13:31:26 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.184 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.221.184; Received: by mail-qy0-f184.google.com with SMTP id 14so3922363qyk.14 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 13:31:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.91.212 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 13:31:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20100405210225.GW6084@digitalkingdom.org> <20100409002127.GA11541@digitalkingdom.org> <867212.21796.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 17:31:24 -0300 Received: by 10.229.213.67 with SMTP id gv3mr654358qcb.87.1270845085016; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 13:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: [lojban-announcements] Essay on the future of Lojban, with a simple poll for the community. From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.184 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/c67f210addc06a0c X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/93c16cb7f416e3d3 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 4:31 PM, Christopher Doty wro= te: > > I see two, maybe three, areas where there is a problem from a linguistic > perspective. =A0The first is that languages do not have verbs with more t= han > four unmarked slots for a predicate, and there are VERY few that have fou= r; > the vast majority of verbs in the vast majority of languages have three o= r > less. That has always been my opinion too. In practice however, there are some mitigating factors (some of which you mentioned) that makes this almost a non-issue for Lojban. One factor is that many argument places are just fluff ("by standard x", "under conditions x", "of material x", and such) that nobody ever uses and exist mostly for decoration, and to give headaches to anyone trying to figure out what rule was used to decide whether to include them or not in any given argument structure. Another factor is that In the really few cases where four or five arguments are more or less justifiable by the meaning of the word, they are practically never used together. So you might say "mi klama fu lo karce", but you won't see much or any actual usage with all five places of "klama" filled. > I think this is what you meant by "processing > depth"--the problem is that most humans actually CAN'T PROCESS at the dep= th > needed for a gismu with seven places. I suspect he was referring to center embedding. Structures like "the dog the cat the mouse feared chased died". >=A0But, in Lojban, EVERYTHING that makes a > predicate looks like everything else that makes a predicate. Not quite. "blanu", "du", "go'i", "fu'ivla", "pavyseljirna", "bangrsua'ili", "me mi moi", "da zei djan" are all predicates and look quite different. Even if we only consider gismu, they come in three different flavours: CCV,CV CV,CCV CVC,CV all two syllables, but different kind of syllables. >=A0I would very > much doubt that memorizing the 1300 or so gismu in Lojban would be at all > comparable to learning 1300 of, say, Spanish, because there is more for y= our > brain to stick to. For an English speaker, the Spanish words would probably be easier. For a Chinese speaker, my guess is that the Lojban words would be easier. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.