From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhD8sP7dBBoEO6VhbQ@googlegroups.com Fri Apr 09 14:13:59 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f137.google.com ([209.85.211.137]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O0LWT-00044O-Q7 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:13:59 -0700 Received: by ywh1 with SMTP id 1sf564063ywh.28 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:13:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=Em6DsVfETw0XJNhRBqpMaFSdHJYvC5lme+ibUBt5GIM=; b=vYNQkfEEuyOg8KLq2+9KGgtL/WAxCmxuzoAs7QJrE4kpV+cwI41xYQuREb1ToRn72D focIG7jaZBz5IorOyvqpXYOd/ZbufWEaD7FsTmvzOeWBkZMXMz3q+JhhHGuoS8S3diJk n0iYtIjG1uhtJaQ1+L7pCS0uxJzesYAuyW4tI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=c6YEUn7N0/PxiOA7XgColSouLxL7ZQuGn0U/eILeBQKdTTrqwwOQAtcOqLNUFAjkn/ FkeSo6+bSZEVH5L/V3uRJEjypt93r4V72U3j2x5ccsmcbJwXz3wQ1/W7sHMbwA0S2LHb mftLaEHp/QmHgkAbfvpQkFHyGWobsZ9rXxWXU= Received: by 10.91.90.9 with SMTP id s9mr156883agl.43.1270847612576; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:13:32 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.6.77 with SMTP id 13ls422467bky.3.p; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:13:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.161.203 with SMTP id s11mr43293bkx.36.1270847610682; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:13:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.161.203 with SMTP id s11mr43292bkx.36.1270847610620; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:13:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f178.google.com (mail-wy0-f178.google.com [74.125.82.178]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id v26si1860963bkt.3.2010.04.09.14.13.29; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:13:29 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.178 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.178; Received: by mail-wy0-f178.google.com with SMTP id 11so144524wyi.23 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:13:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.30.146 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 14:13:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4BBF83EC.2050402@lojban.org> References: <4BBF505B.2050705@gmail.com> <4BBF83EC.2050402@lojban.org> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 15:13:29 -0600 Received: by 10.216.156.203 with SMTP id m53mr329015wek.209.1270847609398; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:13:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Cultural fu'ivla: summary and list of the ISO generated ones From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.178 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/f66e2fdee6af20a6 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/b528c291d4e37778 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e657b0e6526e150483d44499 --0016e657b0e6526e150483d44499 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 1:45 PM, Bob LeChevalier wrote: > Jonathan Jones wrote: > >> 1) Having gismu for some cultures and not others is biased, and therefore >> violates the "culturally neutral" stance of Lojban. >> > > Only in the same sense that basing the gismu-making process on only 6 of > the 12 most-spoken languages is culturally-biased, because it excludes all > the rest. > > If one thinks only about gismu, then perhaps it is. If one considers > fu'ivla made from the name of the language/culture IN the language, then > we've more than neutralized that bias. > > Gismu are shorter than fu'ivla, reflecting a presumption under Zipf's law > of higher usage frequency, and references by speakers to their own language > is a high frequency concept, so giving shorter words to more-spoken > languages is one form of cultural-neutrality. That's a very good argument, and one I wish had been presented at least a week ago. > > > > The only > >> acceptable solution to this is to either have a word for *all* cultures, >> or to not have a word for *any* of them. >> > > We decided otherwise. > > > 2) The cultural gismu basically have too many meanings. For example, >> {merko} means "x1 pertains to USA/American culture/nationality/dialect in >> aspect x2". The solution to this is to >> > > ... make lujvo based on them. And in fu'ivla space, make culture words > using the experimental space that allows fu'ivla to be made into rafsi and > combined with the gismu used with the cultural gismu to make lujvo. > > Um, that's basically what I said in the bit you cut out. > lojbab > -- > Bob LeChevalier lojbab@lojban.org www.lojban.org > President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016e657b0e6526e150483d44499 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 1:45 PM, Bob LeCh= evalier <lojbab@l= ojban.org> wrote:
Jonathan Jones wrote:
1) Having gismu for some cultures and not others is biased, and therefore v= iolates the "culturally neutral" stance of Lojban.

Only in the same sense that basing the gismu-making process on only 6 of th= e 12 most-spoken languages is culturally-biased, because it excludes all th= e rest.

If one thinks only about gismu, then perhaps it is. =A0If one considers fu&= #39;ivla made from the name of the language/culture IN the language, then w= e've more than neutralized that bias.

Gismu are shorter than fu'ivla, reflecting a presumption under Zipf'= ;s law of higher usage frequency, and references by speakers to their own l= anguage is a high frequency concept, so giving shorter words to more-spoken= languages is one form of cultural-neutrality.

That's a very good argument, and one I wish had been presented= at least a week ago.


> The only
acceptable solution to this is to either have a word for *all* cultures, or= to not have a word for *any* of them.

We decided otherwise.=A0


2) The cultural gismu basically have too many meanings. For example, {merko= } means "x1 pertains to USA/American culture/nationality/dialect in as= pect x2". The solution to this is to

... make lujvo based on them. =A0And in fu'ivla space, make culture wor= ds using the experimental space that allows fu'ivla to be made into raf= si and combined with the gismu used with the cultural gismu to make lujvo.<= br>
Um, that's basically what I said in the bit you c= ut out.
=A0
lojbab
--
Bob LeChevalier =A0 =A0lojbab@lojban.org =A0 =A0www.lojban.org
President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc.


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.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu
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