From lojban+bncCJ2w4Zy_AhDAwP7dBBoEEMnkTQ@googlegroups.com Fri Apr 09 14:47:08 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O0M2X-0006Mb-J9 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:47:07 -0700 Received: by gwj21 with SMTP id 21sf1770137gwj.16 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:46:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:received:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=mkEGubCwaFj46nv6C/CNMMHaft1WKi7GgEyYOLVQaG8=; b=bXMvFs9NaEPpatgK3H3NpEAmwXTqNo846GRlaNEw19fUWtMRbQ8VSW8tZL0d8ANgUQ fL0MEFpqnxN2+KcsGdjWsUmMy/99+YRvLd/ZU4hpma1SQmXaJOkOMErFXYz8CyVzHNhW atRmiESpdrMHUasM0xf2x/DPm0gRpNsrVabF8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=R+PbdYomaLBXsRj04imfFjOkjWEbmldRPQ5e6AFxbRx03OB8379bC+m7X7iKs8Ozy/ oU+2IvC8FrsKUdj0CtUJmgIEq2gc85r70gh7hsYXGzngsHGc7tP/ymKjNyYYmPCMRlLK kD+Y6PXr1w5M8jTOIaxJOW7rrPsi4Y4/v6q7I= Received: by 10.91.91.7 with SMTP id t7mr155068agl.45.1270849600384; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:46:40 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.91.8 with SMTP id t8ls97262agl.2.p; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:46:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.27.37 with SMTP id e37mr1079001agj.9.1270849596235; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:46:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.27.37 with SMTP id e37mr1078916agj.9.1270849593905; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:46:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f174.google.com (mail-yx0-f174.google.com [209.85.210.174]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 19si180649ywh.4.2010.04.09.14.46.32; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:46:32 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.174 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.174; Received: by mail-yx0-f174.google.com with SMTP id 4so1888281yxe.28 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:46:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.5.20 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 14:46:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <214ece77-e78c-4fc8-a089-37ff2a3bf113@k33g2000yqc.googlegroups.com> References: <4BBF505B.2050705@gmail.com> <214ece77-e78c-4fc8-a089-37ff2a3bf113@k33g2000yqc.googlegroups.com> From: Christopher Doty Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 14:46:12 -0700 Received: by 10.101.106.13 with SMTP id i13mr1060193anm.244.1270849592578; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:46:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Cultural fu'ivla: summary and list of the ISO generated ones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.174 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=suomichris@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: suomichris@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/f66e2fdee6af20a6 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/6eda9b62328fb65c Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5bfce8753bf0483d4ba44 --001636c5bfce8753bf0483d4ba44 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 14:27, tijlan wrote: > On 9 April 2010 20:49, Christopher Doty wrote: > > > > In terms of "how the brain works," what I mean is that the brain > processes speech linearly. But, as with everything in nature, the brain is > also lazy, and tries to use context to determine what is coming up. So, > imagine that I say, "The longest word in the English language is a..." > > At this point, your brain has already thrown out a bunch of > possibilities. It's thrown out anything that doesn't start with /a/. It's > also likely already thrown out short words, because I'm looking for > something long. "Ant" is likely not part of the set of words that my brain > is looking at. > > "...nt..." > > I still know it isn't ant, but now I also know what it starts with, and > what it doesn't. By the time I get to: > > "...idises..." > > You likely know what I'm going to say, assuming you've heard the word > "antidisestablishmentarianism" before. And all that before I got half way > through the word! There are any number of experiment verifications of this: > your brain processes language as it goes along, and if that information is > not helpful or is not what it expected, it creates problems, because your > brain now has to backtrack [...] > > In French, adjectives are basically backtrack: > > langue construite (constructed language) > > So, if the speaker starts with "langue", the listener waits for the > following element which specifies the kind of "langue", which is > "construite". And this is how my brain would process the fu'ivla > "banjubu'o" as well. "ban...", language, "...jubu'o", Lojban: a > language which is Lojban. > > In Japanese (and Turkish, Tamil, Basque etc.), the modifier-nucleus > order can be almost reverse to English (and Spanish, Arabic, etc.): > > [1]What [-]do [2]you [3]think [4]about [5]this [6]language [-]which > [-]has [8]no [9]syntactical ambiguity? > [9]koubunteki-aimaisei-ga [8]nai [5]kono [6]gengo-[4]o [2]anata-wa > [1]dou [3]omou? > > Literally: > > syntactical ambiguity no this language about you what think? > > As it goes along, "-o" (about) is followed by "anata" (you); do you > consider this flow of information helpful? If it's not helpful, it > would create problems, according to you. In fact, the word with the > most important sentential information, the predicate, "omou" (think), > comes at the end of the expression. But proficient Japanese speakers > are not troubled by that, since their brain works such that it > captures the sentence non-linearly, in its entirety, after all of its > components have been laid out. It's processing 'as it has gone' rather > than 'as it goes along'. > Nothing I said had anything to do with order of words in a phrase, it had to do with words starting with the same set of sounds. Your brain does a lexical search for words, not whole sentences. There is a phenomena in syntax, usually called a garden path sentence, where you have to backtrack. It is a similar issue, but not directly related to what I laid out. (Also, by the way, French does not "backtrack" unless you assume that English is the "normal" way; there's no such criteria, though.) > > or, in the case of having language names start with the same thing, has > to suddenly sort through the whole list, instead of having paired down in > steps. > > Still for language names that don't start with the same thing, like > "jbobau", the brain has to sort through the whole list of items evoked > by that leading element. "jbo...", jbota'a? jboce'u? jboge'a? jbopre? > and so on, until it gets decided with "...bau". I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Unless there are 7,000 words with related meanings that all start with jbo, this isn't an issue. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --001636c5bfce8753bf0483d4ba44 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 14:27, tijlan <jbotijlan@googlemail.com> wrote:<= br>
On 9 April 2010 20:49, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> In terms of "how the brain works," what I mean is that the b= rain processes speech linearly. =A0But, as with everything in nature, the b= rain is also lazy, and tries to use context to determine what is coming up.= =A0So, imagine that I say, "The longest word in the English language = is a..."
> At this point, your brain has already thrown out a bunch of possibilit= ies. =A0It's thrown out anything that doesn't start with /a/. =A0It= 's also likely already thrown out short words, because I'm looking = for something long. =A0"Ant" is likely not part of the set of wor= ds that my brain is looking at.
> "...nt..."
> I still know it isn't ant, but now I also know what it starts with= , and what it doesn't. By the time I get to:
> "...idises..."
> You likely know what I'm going to say, assuming you've h= eard the word "antidisestablishmentarianism" before. =A0And all t= hat before I got half way through the word! =A0There are any number of expe= riment verifications of this: your brain processes language as it goes alon= g, and if that information is not helpful or is not what it expected, it cr= eates problems, because your brain now has to backtrack [...]

In French, adjectives are basically backtrack:

=A0langue construite (constructed language)

So, if the speaker starts with "langue", the listener waits for t= he
following element which specifies the kind of "langue", which is<= br> "construite". And this is how my brain would process the fu'i= vla
"banjubu'o" as well. "ban...", language, "...j= ubu'o", Lojban: a
language which is Lojban.

In Japanese (and Turkish, Tamil, Basque etc.), the modifier-nucleus
order can be almost reverse to English (and Spanish, Arabic, etc.):

=A0[1]What [-]do [2]you [3]think [4]about [5]this [6]language [-]which
[-]has [8]no [9]syntactical ambiguity?
=A0[9]koubunteki-aimaisei-ga [8]nai [5]kono [6]gengo-[4]o [2]anata-wa
[1]dou [3]omou?

Literally:

=A0syntactical ambiguity no this language about you what think?

As it goes along, "-o" (about) is followed by "anata" (= you); do you
consider this flow of information helpful? If it's not helpful, it
would create problems, according to you. In fact, the word with the
most important sentential information, the predicate, "omou" (thi= nk),
comes at the end of the expression. But proficient Japanese speakers
are not troubled by that, since their brain works such that it
captures the sentence non-linearly, in its entirety, after all of its
components have been laid out. It's processing 'as it has gone'= rather
than 'as it goes along'.

Nothin= g I said had anything to do with order of words in a phrase, it had to do w= ith words starting with the same set of sounds. =A0Your brain does a lexica= l search for words, not whole sentences. =A0There is a phenomena in syntax,= usually called a garden path sentence, where you have to backtrack. =A0It = is a similar issue, but not directly related to what I laid out. =A0(Also, = by the way, French does not "backtrack" unless you assume that En= glish is the "normal" way; there's no such criteria, though.)=
=A0
> or, in the case of having language names start with the same thing, ha= s to suddenly sort through the whole list, instead of having paired down in= steps.

Still for language names that don't start with the same thing, li= ke
"jbobau", the brain has to sort through the whole list of items e= voked
by that leading element. "jbo...", jbota'a? jboce'u? jbog= e'a? jbopre?
and so on, until it gets decided with "...bau".
=
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. =A0Unless = there are 7,000 words with related meanings that all start with jbo, this i= sn't an issue.=A0

--
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