From lojban+bncCN673cmqFBCb7f7dBBoEVdXKXA@googlegroups.com Fri Apr 09 16:22:28 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f166.google.com ([209.85.221.166]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O0NWq-0003hR-AY for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 16:22:28 -0700 Received: by qyk38 with SMTP id 38sf3035708qyk.1 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 16:22:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:received:x-vr-score :x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score:message-id:date:from:user-agent :x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=S7Ee+pWS+3qsnp/QYnhUbg1qqrwuRCmghmCiLvZNEPc=; b=18T3WufiY+KqwTef/+ZvYW8wnmb/SjP/UXv0lXarjuL569F1oEqhx28pBI6U80tO0/ 1Q9LZSEsU7t82O6s4A2SJnkhYZ4Mp3MyOKYOKxaqJOqysxwDS9jFjCYfhKvjo6nNr7LW dNNgpAJtYyGC3oOfrmeShsKKtk7q23YdsvY1M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-vr-score:x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score :message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=540qDRJOKRSYfc6//PRoNy/3B35x3ofky2ZaDSY3B3l/cE1GS8e0kbB+OXNKoF0LtJ 86VC8Jk5X+AiYj+TGNybvCnSYCRg8Vwbj6z4ZrSO71igx9uh1Lw3tbCGgzZWHsUc7oIv 8BLSbmBFPUCAL1PHmoIqk3whsMeJ5mEZbX2xw= Received: by 10.224.99.75 with SMTP id t11mr41146qan.12.1270855323296; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 16:22:03 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.59.82 with SMTP id k18ls228506qah.5.p; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 16:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.25.66 with SMTP id y2mr87429qab.14.1270855321796; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 16:22:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.41.36 with SMTP id o36mr1117211ago.8.1270848453863; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.41.36 with SMTP id o36mr1117125ago.8.1270848451468; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:27:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eastrmmtao101.cox.net (eastrmmtao101.cox.net [68.230.240.7]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 24si81363yxe.1.2010.04.09.14.27.31; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:27:31 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.7 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) client-ip=68.230.240.7; Received: from eastrmimpo02.cox.net ([68.1.16.120]) by eastrmmtao101.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20100409212731.VTFU14747.eastrmmtao101.cox.net@eastrmimpo02.cox.net> for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 17:27:31 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.100] ([70.187.225.124]) by eastrmimpo02.cox.net with bizsmtp id 3ZTW1e00M2hfrC602ZTWwU; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 17:27:30 -0400 X-VR-Score: -140.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=lL4dQe6A0XfTYzqIbzpq/h+TkgPEjAvcHnuEPneVQrQ= c=1 sm=1 a=lBOGML6gZwMA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=lsg66w07okjF3vGJL2g+Jw==:17 a=8YJikuA2AAAA:8 a=LXhF1QztbXVrFJWmnOAA:9 a=DrhDqetjdPvm3ysslKIA:7 a=WCtBd_voEGpW7Te3xlSTN2UvH_QA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=dxBpO5_FDU0A:10 a=lsg66w07okjF3vGJL2g+Jw==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <4BBF9BDB.2060808@lojban.org> Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 17:27:55 -0400 From: Bob LeChevalier User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Cultural fu'ivla: summary and list of the ISO generated ones References: <4BBF505B.2050705@gmail.com> <4BBF783C.5020507@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.7 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) smtp.mail=lojbab@lojban.org X-Original-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/f66e2fdee6af20a6 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/e206d13269950677 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Christopher Doty wrote: > I mean, I think I kind of understood this last part. I thought the idea > was that Lojban would perhaps, at some point, serve a rather > international function. If that's really not the goal, that's > fine--I'll shut up and remove myself from the lists. I hope you don't. But, no, that is not "the" goal, and was in fact explicitly disavowed as such because we offend Esperantists who think we are competing with them, and we offend linguists, who as a class tend to disparage the "international language" movement (and this disavowal indeed helped me in discussing Lojban with the linguistic community). But it is a goal for some Lojbanists, and it is one that we do not disparage, even while not making it a formal goal that might drive decision-making. There is certainly an international aspect to Lojban in the sense that any linguistics research using Lojban would need to use speakers of multiple natural languages, especially of unrelated families, to give credible results. > Real languages do things that are WAY more mind-bending than Lojban; I have no reason to > be interested in or study the language if it's only purpose is to > mind-bend, since it fails at that, as far as I'm concerned. I'm sure there are a few things that would qualify %^) As an example for a linguist: All languages have raising phenomena, but Lojban's sumti-raising is both explicit and extremely powerful (and I personally find lambda calculus to be more mind-bending than I can handle %^). Most languages have several words corresponding to our attitudinals, but again I think Lojban goes far beyond any of them, and allows productive compounding, which I don't think exists in natural language attitudinals (though I won't be offended if you know an example). The tense stuff all comes from natural languages - several different ones. No *one* language puts so many tools for expressing tense in one place: ZAhO, TAhE, etc. And then there are the time-travel tenses. Will speakers use all these things? That's what we'll hopefully find out. But if we put too much "real languages do things this way" into Lojban, we are basically limiting the possibilities. We don't know all the ways that real languages do things, and we cannot know the full range of how they MIGHT do them. Lojban is a test bed that allow people to try things that they cannot in their native language, and to use expressive tools in combination that no extent natural language has. -- Bob LeChevalier lojbab@lojban.org www.lojban.org President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.