From lojban+bncCOzcnrWBFBCd7f7dBBoE1-piBw@googlegroups.com Fri Apr 09 16:22:31 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f166.google.com ([209.85.221.166]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O0NWs-0003hZ-HB for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 16:22:30 -0700 Received: by qyk38 with SMTP id 38sf3035738qyk.1 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 16:22:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:mime-version:sender :received:in-reply-to:references:date:received:message-id:subject :from:to:x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=0I9IOrQov3BjqX/OV0h6Q+8jiEZW4VljN5L2fj25UfU=; b=gf82dIVRCoLvtl4gpUXn60l0zDZD5f5hdPH8i0EvEEvQ3dGNgOXwTaw+sPROWa3n7N WgYSDWiZ+CJyFbHadBP/NSkz+cgNnX8+aFFtNPilnL8hkRVkmybzh1jolIzcAdk3zECg nSSUfPooOJz6lOFJgvrtuexdE6oXRhqVtXGf0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=vT0hFExDz9Ac7yWzQtVu7WS7B09XkwA1sPNwMZ8H+0z282+IKiXNe8kNK0wISHn6gY B1Vkq6JfWKe5q+8TCEF90eXsdfidNIbr6URb4TytgPCEu2uKua6OyLXxWP9Vy7IVOn0x DG3rNkSu7tvJvDaP+q9Sxa0M/wCDBrwi2fqT4= Received: by 10.224.93.1 with SMTP id t1mr41849qam.19.1270855325085; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 16:22:05 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.42.12 with SMTP id q12ls223093qae.0.p; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 16:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.65.89 with SMTP id h25mr86172qai.21.1270855322577; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 16:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.169.134 with SMTP id z6mr191948vcy.28.1270848287653; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:24:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.169.134 with SMTP id z6mr191947vcy.28.1270848287571; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:24:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f179.google.com (mail-qy0-f179.google.com [209.85.221.179]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 25si4129251vws.0.2010.04.09.14.24.46; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:24:46 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of pascal.akihiko@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.179 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.221.179; Received: by qyk9 with SMTP id 9so1874258qyk.1 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:24:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.45.20 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 14:24:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4BBF505B.2050705@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 22:24:45 +0100 Received: by 10.229.230.4 with SMTP id jk4mr902523qcb.1.1270848286138; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:24:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Cultural fu'ivla: summary and list of the ISO generated ones From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pascal.akihiko@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.179 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=pascal.akihiko@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: pascal.akihiko@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/f66e2fdee6af20a6 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/c68ef22f8d83c030 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016364ec7a8a8a7640483d46c3c --0016364ec7a8a8a7640483d46c3c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 9 April 2010 20:49, Christopher Doty wrote: > > In terms of "how the brain works," what I mean is that the brain processes speech linearly. But, as with everything in nature, the brain is also lazy, and tries to use context to determine what is coming up. So, imagine that I say, "The longest word in the English language is a..." > At this point, your brain has already thrown out a bunch of possibilities. It's thrown out anything that doesn't start with /a/. It's also likely already thrown out short words, because I'm looking for something long. "Ant" is likely not part of the set of words that my brain is looking at. > "...nt..." > I still know it isn't ant, but now I also know what it starts with, and what it doesn't. By the time I get to: > "...idises..." > You likely know what I'm going to say, assuming you've heard the word "antidisestablishmentarianism" before. And all that before I got half way through the word! There are any number of experiment verifications of this: your brain processes language as it goes along, and if that information is not helpful or is not what it expected, it creates problems, because your brain now has to backtrack [...] In French, adjectives are basically backtrack: langue construite (constructed language) So, if the speaker starts with "langue", the listener waits for the following element which specifies the kind of "langue", which is "construite". And this is how my brain would process the fu'ivla "banjubu'o" as well. "ban...", language, "...jubu'o", Lojban: a language which is Lojban. In Japanese (and Turkish, Tamil, Basque etc.), the modifier-nucleus order can be almost reverse to English (and Spanish, Arabic, etc.): [1]What [-]do [2]you [3]think [4]about [5]this [6]language [-]which [-]has [8]no [9]syntactical ambiguity? [9]koubunteki-aimaisei-ga [8]nai [5]kono [6]gengo-[4]o [2]anata-wa [1]dou [3]omou? Literally: syntactical ambiguity no this language about you what think? As it goes along, "-o" (about) is followed by "anata" (you); do you consider this flow of information helpful? If it's not helpful, it would create problems, according to you. In fact, the word with the most important sentential information, the predicate, "omou" (think), comes at the end of the expression. But proficient Japanese speakers are not troubled by that, since their brain works such that it captures the sentence non-linearly, in its entirety, after all of its components have been laid out. It's processing 'as it has gone' rather than 'as it goes along'. > or, in the case of having language names start with the same thing, has to suddenly sort through the whole list, instead of having paired down in steps. Still for language names that don't start with the same thing, like "jbobau", the brain has to sort through the whole list of items evoked by that leading element. "jbo...", jbota'a? jboce'u? jboge'a? jbopre? and so on, until it gets decided with "...bau". mu'o mi'e tijlan -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016364ec7a8a8a7640483d46c3c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9 April 2010 20:49, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> In terms of &q= uot;how the brain works," what I mean is that the brain processes spee= ch linearly. =A0But, as with everything in nature, the brain is also lazy, = and tries to use context to determine what is coming up. =A0So, imagine tha= t I say, "The longest word in the English language is a..."
> At this point, your brain has already thrown out a bunch of possibilit= ies. =A0It's thrown out anything that doesn't start with /a/. =A0It= 's also likely already thrown out short words, because I'm looking = for something long. =A0"Ant" is likely not part of the set of wor= ds that my brain is looking at.
> "...nt..."
> I still know it isn't ant, but now I = also know what it starts with, and what it doesn't. By the time I get t= o:
> "...idises..."
> You likely know what I'm go= ing to say, assuming you've heard the word "antidisestablishmentar= ianism" before. =A0And all that before I got half way through the word= ! =A0There are any number of experiment verifications of this: your brain p= rocesses language as it goes along, and if that information is not helpful = or is not what it expected, it creates problems, because your brain now has= to backtrack [...]

In French, adjectives are basically backtrack:

=A0langue constru= ite (constructed language)

So, if the speaker starts with "lang= ue", the listener waits for the following element which specifies the = kind of "langue", which is "construite". And this is ho= w my brain would process the fu'ivla "banjubu'o" as well.= "ban...", language, "...jubu'o", Lojban: a languag= e which is Lojban.

In Japanese (and Turkish, Tamil, Basque etc.), the modifier-nucleus ord= er can be almost reverse to English (and Spanish, Arabic, etc.):

=A0= [1]What [-]do [2]you [3]think [4]about [5]this [6]language [-]which [-]has = [8]no [9]syntactical ambiguity?
=A0[9]koubunteki-aimaisei-ga [8]nai [5]kono [6]gengo-[4]o [2]anata-wa [1]do= u [3]omou?

Literally:

=A0syntactical ambiguity no this langua= ge about you what think?

As it goes along, "-o" (about) is= followed by "anata" (you); do you consider this flow of informat= ion helpful? If it's not helpful, it would create problems, according t= o you. In fact, the word with the most important sentential information, th= e predicate, "omou" (think), comes at the end of the expression. = But proficient Japanese speakers are not troubled by that, since their brai= n works such that it captures the sentence non-linearly, in its entirety, a= fter all of its components have been laid out. It's processing 'as = it has gone' rather than 'as it goes along'.

> or, in the case of having language names start with the same thing= , has to suddenly sort through the whole list, instead of having paired dow= n in steps.

Still for language names that don't start with the s= ame thing, like "jbobau", the brain has to sort through the whole= list of items evoked by that leading element. "jbo...", jbota= 9;a? jboce'u? jboge'a? jbopre? and so on, until it gets decided wit= h "...bau".

mu'o mi'e tijlan

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