From lojban+bncCK30vq5WEMqM_90EGgSu-Z2m@googlegroups.com Fri Apr 09 17:29:26 2010 Received: from mail-pz0-f139.google.com ([209.85.222.139]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O0OZb-0007cn-3f for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 17:29:25 -0700 Received: by pzk3 with SMTP id 3sf176983pzk.28 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 17:29:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:date:from:to :subject:message-id:references:mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-disposition; bh=QFXVxfmiU9RTH9Q6BJd+E+QNShB8+jhMGnGqRelf64A=; b=kJ/VdkP5Y8/riwTizmC7YKegx7fEzZ2QNqSyrAtjZvHCXJIj91NdNRo0QlUSW3sggE SmFcwcp1/T6W1NEDZLoSK1YOIuE+z6KD6KPMH4TxhP8WMD624wnQwwQbvLj3Oeg1bN9Q /ygf1kRIaGxPf2xkgYfDKeRWIIw9W3KQjgQ+Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-disposition; b=FjXZHzfvR/HUyDCmTTuKOtME0BoZqkHTiKn9sz47meGRfjLJ7sJVA9WRCHSnRQNlcv uLbpPP++opWP+h1r7a9VG5ESrNt4CoDk/bY5A4sp3COGy03q2CVXu/ugnoSDs/s9lZVR kXWYMG0/K62BXUElz4hjVCMuZ7jQYH3QDzKhQ= Received: by 10.141.125.16 with SMTP id c16mr109175rvn.18.1270859338298; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 17:28:58 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.141.188.22 with SMTP id q22ls542631rvp.1.p; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 17:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.22.14 with SMTP id z14mr133398rvi.18.1270859336569; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 17:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.22.14 with SMTP id z14mr133397rvi.18.1270859336549; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 17:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail5.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail5.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.7]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 24si357755pzk.13.2010.04.09.17.28.56; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 17:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 69.17.117.7 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org) client-ip=69.17.117.7; Received: (qmail 21071 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2010 00:28:56 -0000 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 10 Apr 2010 00:28:56 -0000 Received: from rlpowell by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O0OZC-0007c2-M2 for lojban@googlegroups.com; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 17:28:55 -0700 Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 17:28:54 -0700 From: Robin Lee Powell To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Response to Robin's "Essay on the future of Lojban" Message-ID: <20100410002854.GP11541@digitalkingdom.org> References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <20100409014708.GB11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BBF197D.6080601@lojban.org> <20100409222518.GN11541@digitalkingdom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20100409222518.GN11541@digitalkingdom.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 69.17.117.7 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org) smtp.mail=rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-Original-Sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/33d26e8385fed297 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/cfff7e84fd3c127a Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline > > >I expect there to be varying levels of documentation; a > > >beginner's book, the CLL, the online super-spec, that sort of > > >thing. How much people choose to learn is up to them; you can > > >speak perfectly good Lojban without ever opening the CLL, even > > >now. But when people *do* have a question, there should be an > > >answer, somewhere. > > > > I'd like to accept all this. But to say that "you can speak > > perfectly good Lojban without ever opening the CLL, even now" > > implies that someone who doesn't ever open CLL and is still > > speaking perfect Lojban even if he violates CLL. > > > > If you can beat someone about the head and shoulders and say > > "you are doing it wrong" if they don't follow some part of the > > prescription, then they have to know that part. > > If all you do is [optional UI] [sumti] [selbri] [optional sumti], > you will never be wrong, and you will never need to open the CLL. > You'll also be limited in what you can express, but add NU to > that, and not *very* limited at all. > > It should be possible for people to speak the language correctly > after reading L4B or similar, without ever opening the CLL. As a specific example of "no-one needs to memorize this, but we need to document it anyway", I present http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Magic+Words 99.999% of the time, you'll never have to worry about what "zo zei bu" means. The first couple of tiers of documentation don't even need to suggest that this is a possibility, beyond perhaps "for more information see CLL Chap N Sec M". That doesn't mean it should be left undefined (as is the current state: the YACC does not touch on those words at all). -Robin -- They say: "The first AIs will be built by the military as weapons." And I'm thinking: "Does it even occur to you to try for something other than the default outcome?" See http://shrunklink.com/cdiz http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.