From lojban+bncCNTPpI2KGxD1nv_dBBoEQA5zJA@googlegroups.com Fri Apr 09 18:08:31 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f166.google.com ([209.85.221.166]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O0PBT-0001c6-3W for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 18:08:31 -0700 Received: by qyk38 with SMTP id 38sf3123204qyk.1 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 18:08:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:x-authority-analysis:x-cloudmark-score :x-originating-ip:received:received:from:to:subject:date:user-agent :references:in-reply-to:mime-version:message-id :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; bh=gWQ6vMvQXW3aveSqLjCZHh+1+Iykdj0AmtoJSzwSazE=; b=Ch0fiqnYeFSOKjsi1OyxQdyj0QvTDG5Xo0v0Jbt+5uXaRfVzpapL3W+w9ZYPbrkbQG 32AV4zon/UaGirimKHH4TojeTd/PW6RZbr2dT7pFU76PjhjeqPNPro0CFx7gJS45SNfU CHrPsREKUTyjIMe5/dn7UHyjt7ge4V428njQ8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-authority-analysis:x-cloudmark-score :x-originating-ip:from:to:subject:date:user-agent:references :in-reply-to:mime-version:message-id :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=zoqRvdG+8YZZM6BNe0/HO4c1wpThebXT603EKUGKq/KY2iK+GMHZXJpwXQJiDYnQCv 0GXM2/s5NEHnVtmx1yzSh8TcIbUcFyTYEhasK4qnNep0xECyr+ZvXmgpVcskRA7qW7i0 TZWvDw5XOm6t8Kk6kvMquN+2xUBtSbROI3z/E= Received: by 10.224.97.169 with SMTP id l41mr47915qan.5.1270861685950; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 18:08:05 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.38.138 with SMTP id b10ls247393qae.4.p; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 18:08:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.35.21 with SMTP id n21mr97833qad.0.1270861684755; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 18:08:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.35.21 with SMTP id n21mr97832qad.0.1270861684722; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 18:08:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.122]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si257595qyk.4.2010.04.09.18.08.04; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 18:08:04 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 75.180.132.122 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of phma@phma.optus.nu) client-ip=75.180.132.122; X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=BcrMeMh1FZ8f+Yn0DMFpCYxUD07jTIHG6/eaijgkUbY= c=1 sm=0 a=tGb7aRfTalwA:10 a=ORa4HqFjfvEA:10 a=Q9fys5e9bTEA:10 a=ITGCJgwGTuG7H/gKGaarIQ==:17 a=E63N92d26pg66jRutNkA:9 a=hI_laKTZ74zGcdaKVsUA:7 a=XXzuxiAm_mVhr9Ry0lc9-XBq_9oA:4 a=PUjeQqilurYA:10 a=KHcqqkXMziO-YOZ6:21 a=OaqQVueoiOqxyN3V:21 a=ITGCJgwGTuG7H/gKGaarIQ==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 71.71.198.100 Received: from [71.71.198.100] ([71.71.198.100:45592] helo=chausie) by cdptpa-oedge04.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.39 r()) with ESMTP id 7C/BA-28131-37FCFBB4; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 01:08:04 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chausie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9215F2C67 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 21:08:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Pierre Abbat To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Essay on the future of Lojban, with a simple poll for the community. Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 21:07:59 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 (enterprise 0.20070907.709405) References: <20100405210225.GW6084@digitalkingdom.org> <20100409002127.GA11541@digitalkingdom.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <201004092108.00980.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 75.180.132.122 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of phma@phma.optus.nu) smtp.mail=phma@phma.optus.nu X-Original-Sender: phma@phma.optus.nu Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/c67f210addc06a0c X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/73cd2b2ad9695ecd Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Friday 09 April 2010 13:32:38 Christopher Doty wrote: > This is an interesting issue, I think, because I see the idea of > "mind-bending stuff," while certainly very cool, to be diametrically > opposed to any hope of having Lojban widely adopted as an > international/auxiliary/talking-to-computers/whatever language--there are > plenty of things that natural languages do which are plenty mind-bending = to > speakers of English, but they don't violate general principles of what > languages do and what they don't do, while Lojban does in any number of > respects. I don't see many ways Lojban violates general principles of languages. The= =20 following traits are AFAIK unique to the Loglanic family: *Terminators for grammatical constructs, to enable unambiguous parsing. *An indefinitely long sequence of verb arguments, instead of a morphosyntac= tic=20 alignment. *Verbs, common nouns, adjectives, and adverbs combined into one part of=20 speech. But there are universals concerning the combining of these parts of= =20 speech. *Unambiguously lexable and parsable words (even Esperanto fails that,=20 as "avaro" can mean either "avarice" or "collection of grandfathers"). There are other language families with unique features. Mayan languages hav= e a=20 part of speech found in no other languages; Afro-Asiatic has roots consisti= ng=20 of consonants which are inflected by inserting different vowels; Salishan= =20 languages have words that challenge the notion of syllable. But when I compared Lojban to a list of universals, I found only one clear= =20 violation (and a lot of n/a's): in a phrase like "these three blue houses",= =20 if all three modifiers are on the same side of the head word, the number is= =20 in the middle of the three. The Lojban is "ci vi blanu zdani", and the word= =20 for "these" is a spatial tense. Pierre --=20 When a barnacle settles down, its brain disintegrates. J=E1 n=E3o percebe nada, j=E1 n=E3o percebe nada. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.