From lojban+bncCNuStaWoDxC2vv_dBBoENONT0g@googlegroups.com Fri Apr 09 19:15:43 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O0QEV-000523-Po for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 19:15:43 -0700 Received: by gyd5 with SMTP id 5sf2048811gyd.16 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 19:15:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ntz0qw1dO1Dx7c+FZy+8QjUCP4GsLrFXV6w5dIBUexo=; b=z/hm8wLt1vfXN+PSvQESZ6LnW+Zk1auScx5TM44NMat3j/DlJrTLO8ShGOmjGdLnaP yP2FSCwsmJBWzQE9gKCrVv/vNh85HQFpTR82bIGf5/1OlS4291YPpBgGht93P+ghRgoc hIn4SliNwDpslfWKff1OwC14y0JPv12hwLMyE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=A1v67w3enlfwEGm2L/VGup+R4KjRECcKxpFW6b8ykVuJ6HSmgJSULQQFABoFDuuS36 jxC23IRa23oS45/2+UjvLWQQthYvyPeHZj0bHbpWYR7lAGm35Ep31ZuWacWdV1LcTFZ7 LdguHK6spLh3oEzB6lImCwtbTFT+6a2QFMg6o= Received: by 10.91.56.20 with SMTP id i20mr186216agk.52.1270865718530; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 19:15:18 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.35.68 with SMTP id o4ls483675bkd.1.p; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 19:15:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.156.205 with SMTP id y13mr61375bkw.27.1270865716289; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 19:15:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.156.205 with SMTP id y13mr61374bkw.27.1270865716241; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 19:15:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f226.google.com (mail-bw0-f226.google.com [209.85.218.226]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 11si145496bwz.14.2010.04.09.19.15.15; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 19:15:15 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.226 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.218.226; Received: by bwz26 with SMTP id 26so3159299bwz.7 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 19:15:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.33.16 with SMTP id f16mr973527bkd.11.1270865715075; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 19:15:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.67] (87-194-76-9.bethere.co.uk [87.194.76.9]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d5sm14638226bkd.13.2010.04.09.19.15.13 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 09 Apr 2010 19:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4BBFDF2F.6050509@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 03:15:11 +0100 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Essay on the future of Lojban, with a simple poll for the community. References: <20100405210225.GW6084@digitalkingdom.org> <20100409002127.GA11541@digitalkingdom.org> <201004092108.00980.phma@phma.optus.nu> In-Reply-To: <201004092108.00980.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.226 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/c67f210addc06a0c X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/700a02aec5e66029 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Probably the most fundamentally unnatural and perhaps even 'uncognizable' p= art of Lojban is the formal grammar. The structures of the formal grammar a= re nothing like those found in natural languages. And I rather doubt whethe= r anybody does or can internalize the formal grammar as part of learning an= d using Lojban; rather, I suspect every Lojban speaker has internalized syn= tactic rules inductively from usage and teaching materials and intuition. L= ojban's claim to nonambiguity and parsability rests on a grammar that I'd w= ager is no part of any Lojban idiolect. --And. Pierre Abbat, On 10/04/2010 02:07: > On Friday 09 April 2010 13:32:38 Christopher Doty wrote: >> This is an interesting issue, I think, because I see the idea of >> "mind-bending stuff," while certainly very cool, to be diametrically >> opposed to any hope of having Lojban widely adopted as an >> international/auxiliary/talking-to-computers/whatever language--there ar= e >> plenty of things that natural languages do which are plenty mind-bending= to >> speakers of English, but they don't violate general principles of what >> languages do and what they don't do, while Lojban does in any number of >> respects. >=20 > I don't see many ways Lojban violates general principles of languages. Th= e=20 > following traits are AFAIK unique to the Loglanic family: > *Terminators for grammatical constructs, to enable unambiguous parsing. > *An indefinitely long sequence of verb arguments, instead of a morphosynt= actic=20 > alignment. > *Verbs, common nouns, adjectives, and adverbs combined into one part of= =20 > speech. But there are universals concerning the combining of these parts = of=20 > speech. > *Unambiguously lexable and parsable words (even Esperanto fails that,=20 > as "avaro" can mean either "avarice" or "collection of grandfathers"). >=20 > There are other language families with unique features. Mayan languages h= ave a=20 > part of speech found in no other languages; Afro-Asiatic has roots consis= ting=20 > of consonants which are inflected by inserting different vowels; Salishan= =20 > languages have words that challenge the notion of syllable. >=20 > But when I compared Lojban to a list of universals, I found only one clea= r=20 > violation (and a lot of n/a's): in a phrase like "these three blue houses= ",=20 > if all three modifiers are on the same side of the head word, the number = is=20 > in the middle of the three. The Lojban is "ci vi blanu zdani", and the wo= rd=20 > for "these" is a spatial tense. >=20 > Pierre --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.