From lojban+bncCN673cmqFBDUxP_dBBoEwHbDtg@googlegroups.com Fri Apr 09 19:29:00 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f166.google.com ([209.85.221.166]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O0QRN-0005b0-P7 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 19:29:00 -0700 Received: by qyk38 with SMTP id 38sf3251337qyk.1 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 19:28:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:received:x-vr-score :x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score:message-id:date:from:user-agent :x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=r4d+3tAArDUA0Jjyt1qRyA+R7A2xLbx2NXRA0LKTV9E=; b=iS2PPvtFh7mDyk7pcnfwh7i7CER03dA2OFfDpCCB0hlV7u/UgAZagNni3Z33Vk5utl 3i9Hiwsi0XWDArigcqZjMMNQn38v1GmPDAsOOwP3W9NC1qWozL5IQWtKLbX17mpRyy3d /s+DxnqKxYjwWklJd00AG2UyLSiMQPqyLlE3U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-vr-score:x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score :message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=Ukt7DtSrGD6VhBOmPKXiYI6sQDLO+L7sa64+UQjXfC8SEv6jhe5I+3mgOf23lt35xU nVyL9ldknJQsGgDzJf+pdGGOlwGCNby0BMNt0brhdix0QXh5e2MFvG82X58xl7qc6jOn thN1vY8Ssy573+9om5Ismg6CCVN/A1bjHsiw0= Received: by 10.229.43.195 with SMTP id x3mr34007qce.26.1270866516839; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 19:28:36 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.59.82 with SMTP id k18ls254649qah.5.p; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 19:28:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.59.166 with SMTP id l38mr100728qah.19.1270866515176; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 19:28:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.168.71 with SMTP id t7mr150713vcy.9.1270858949389; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 17:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.168.71 with SMTP id t7mr150712vcy.9.1270858949356; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 17:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eastrmmtao102.cox.net (eastrmmtao102.cox.net [68.230.240.8]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 21si4458864vws.1.2010.04.09.17.22.29; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 17:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.8 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) client-ip=68.230.240.8; Received: from eastrmimpo01.cox.net ([68.1.16.119]) by eastrmmtao102.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20100410002230.ZSYN7060.eastrmmtao102.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net> for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 20:22:30 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.100] ([70.187.225.124]) by eastrmimpo01.cox.net with bizsmtp id 3cNU1e00B2hfrC602cNU4u; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 20:22:28 -0400 X-VR-Score: -100.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=u9aaE4Pfr0xy9UvPxuh9qFR1i2SV5RyaXjJQawTgqeY= c=1 sm=1 a=vaWviJ_AJkYA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=lsg66w07okjF3vGJL2g+Jw==:17 a=8YJikuA2AAAA:8 a=BbdBl1H34159n6QPuwEA:9 a=aNf2FDv7tzo2wTrmdIIiRuTDNhUA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=dxBpO5_FDU0A:10 a=lsg66w07okjF3vGJL2g+Jw==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <4BBFC4F7.6040308@lojban.org> Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 20:23:19 -0400 From: Bob LeChevalier User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: [lojban-announcements] Essay on the future of Lojban, with a simple poll for the community. References: <20100405210225.GW6084@digitalkingdom.org> <20100409002127.GA11541@digitalkingdom.org> <867212.21796.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4BBF9402.2070006@lojban.org> In-Reply-To: X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.8 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) smtp.mail=lojbab@lojban.org X-Original-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/c67f210addc06a0c X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/932f2cccd6ab26b8 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed MorphemeAddict wrote: > On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 4:54 PM, Bob LeChevalier > wrote: > > > There aren't many Lojban words with more than 4 places, where there > are, as with klama, the interrelationship of the places may help to > keep them in mind destination-origin-route all go together, so when > saying a Lojban bridi based on klama with all 5 places expressed, in > my experience actually speaking the language, places 2-3-4 tend to > unify mentally (and I have used all 5 places of klama in speech, > though x5 tends to be obvious most of the time and doesn't need to > be spoken). I think other verbs of motion that parallel klama work > the same way. > > I have always been confused by this ordering of klama's arguments. > Mentioning the end-point before the start-point just seems backwards to me. klama represents two common English verbs in its unconverted form "come" and "go". In both cases the direct object is the destination. I think (but cannot recall and my foreign language knowledge is abysmal) that other languages are the same in putting focus on the destination, probably because that is the more common or useful "new" information. In general we tried to make the oblique places (x3 and up) the sorts of things that might be left elliptical, while allowing them to be expressed when desired, and most importantly for some words, making clear that they were part of the "meaning" (I realize that the above is incredibly sloppy in linguistic terminology, but I am too rusty to express things more correctly). lojbab -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.