From lojban+bncCNuStaWoDxCq4P_dBBoEZwocRg@googlegroups.com Fri Apr 09 20:28:06 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f140.google.com ([209.85.210.140]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O0RMY-0000Qr-Ec for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 20:28:06 -0700 Received: by yxe4 with SMTP id 4sf1823680yxe.28 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 20:27:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ACmLcE6L0LfP7L5U9fsCjM7WnuGe6U4tQl0qkBxz5WU=; b=KTqKNmQ7kLQM/meWbX0UDyhUVUSnvPct1cmjIpnVm0W2yYx1DkcXEonmdJZtPR/vDc Hfn0N/bFEnXENP9n2EwyAp6FadMXEnPuPgo9m7ugCJS0y+k19I/TGEZKzAR/ss3dJxqd ejeS1jBEBb64JbYdx2CJ8ofKAM0e/XIwE4gXk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=D/M2Xj8GcYURKAI7VSYaKhSRuK/I/OdbMe5ltZDmMl0fBoT5sybuPWhYRXGO2Eeujt PVqD8T1Dn15WpI5jG8HjREAiJ/dct0XF2JtoAcky5IWuZgTscO0DumFFdYaF0og1ImDb 5yGsgLUZoVzXPiAIrqe2zxvQdy53iUGRH8cZw= Received: by 10.91.133.13 with SMTP id k13mr191492agn.53.1270870058384; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 20:27:38 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.223.32.71 with SMTP id b7ls288182fad.0.p; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 20:27:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.51.65 with SMTP id c1mr75103fag.0.1270870056676; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 20:27:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.51.65 with SMTP id c1mr75102fag.0.1270870056657; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 20:27:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f218.google.com (mail-bw0-f218.google.com [209.85.218.218]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 17si170157fxm.3.2010.04.09.20.27.35; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 20:27:35 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.218 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.218.218; Received: by bwz10 with SMTP id 10so829022bwz.4 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 20:27:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.22.16 with SMTP id l16mr941988bkb.186.1270870055421; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 20:27:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.67] (87-194-76-9.bethere.co.uk [87.194.76.9]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 24sm15082310bkr.18.2010.04.09.20.27.34 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 09 Apr 2010 20:27:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4BBFF024.2080101@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 04:27:32 +0100 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Response ro Robin's "Essay on the future of Lojban" References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <20100409014708.GB11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BBF5FB4.5070608@gmail.com> <4BBF76A1.4000604@lojban.org> In-Reply-To: <4BBF76A1.4000604@lojban.org> X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.218 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/33d26e8385fed297 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/5b7763c56fd87be2 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob LeChevalier, On 09/04/2010 19:49: > And Rosta wrote: >> Pierre: >> >>> Can we have some Lojbanists accepting some, but not all, of the=20 >>> rulings of the BPFK? >> >> The usage of Lojbanists would and should be unregulated. The=20 >> declaration of Lojban would exist to be used freely however people=20 >> choose. >=20 > A bunch of rules that no one will ever use - sounds like a form of=20 > mental masturbation (or since this is a group effort, an orgy thereof).= =20 > But then I've always tended to disparage conlang-making, where the=20 > process of language-making is the point, and not the result. >=20 > Some people do want to work with Lojban as a mental toy, and we have to= =20 > allow for that. But more, I think, want to communicate with it, which=20 > is what sets Lojban apart from most of the hundreds of conlangs that are= =20 > out there. Need I spell out the contempt that your similes deserve? Perhaps you would = dismiss the sphere of the arts and sciences, of intellectual inquiry and in= tellectual production, as masturbation and toys. It's not that the similes = are inapt, for most intellectual production, e.g. in the universities, is d= one for its own sake, and so could be likened to masturbation or play; the = objectionableness is in your dismissal of this work that enriches our world= and our knowledge of it. And anyway, you've missed the point in various ways. The fact that a langua= ge is a set of rules (definitional rules, not rules regulating behaviour) d= oes not entail that nobody uses the rules or that nobody wants to use them. As for how many people want to communicate in Lojban, it's open to question= what proportion want to communicate in Lojban and what proportion want to = communicate in a still hypothetical language that succeeds in satisfying th= e key speakable-logic design goals of the Loglan/Lojban project. But whatev= er the proportions, surely I am not alone in thinking that the Lojban commu= nity is of interest precisely because there is no other community with a de= sire to work together to create and bring into use a logical language. The = Lojban language itself is a failure as a logical language, but the communit= y itself, despite Robin's well-warranted hand-wringing, is a relative succe= ss.=20 --And. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.