From lojban+bncCO2N0YfCFhCJgILeBBoEB8B18Q@googlegroups.com Sat Apr 10 06:41:54 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O0awX-0005op-OI; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 06:41:54 -0700 Received: by gyd5 with SMTP id 5sf2307804gyd.16 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 06:41:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:x-originating-ip:message-id:from:to :mime-version:subject:date:x-mailer :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=OyxjDdna7hYQgewx4G+XvLcDi/TW4Km1kk58zCLh6iY=; b=yN/obaevOQ2N9Y5E5ItryrPJsDAmgminYlkbaVmE3b+F7K/y7BN2pqo+TogPnYhx9S EoD/whKJlgT2nfJyAplO1o6rxL9sqSt5h/m5lcBXirs9Cz1q8hzD+xDSCTJN8m7ljCXb IMd9iPH4stiipm/M86X6Xa+HCU4d5ecoGAiC4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-originating-ip:message-id:from:to :mime-version:subject:date:x-mailer :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; b=WOvrU1ZwW1V2dSuKL3qG4PcshtLVR151zLg9pTGZ5dyJ6HDjLdtr+0tES9ji8C8h1o 2gkYDkMAUuPLOlFvIUaFbTOparyQZUiixw+yG54y0j5oUGZo69pOYGkLJU4bRzPKoRgS qrYmU6bV3yn8C95QvIueNh9AQnvWmnsz2qkCo= Received: by 10.91.91.8 with SMTP id t8mr279888agl.16.1270906889621; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 06:41:29 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.114.131 with SMTP id e3ls52778ibq.3.p; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 06:41:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.190.16 with SMTP id dg16mr162245ibb.5.1270906888428; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 06:41:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.190.16 with SMTP id dg16mr162243ibb.5.1270906888399; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 06:41:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kcout02.prserv.net (kcout02.prserv.net [12.154.55.32]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 25si340490iwn.0.2010.04.10.06.41.28; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 06:41:28 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 12.154.55.32 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of kpreid@switchb.org) client-ip=12.154.55.32; Received: from 216-171-189-244.northland.net ([216.171.189.244]) by prserv.net (kcout02) with SMTP id <2010041013412720200e0dl1e> (Authid: usinet.kpreid); Sat, 10 Apr 2010 13:41:27 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [216.171.189.244] Message-Id: <40EEA75C-F076-4106-A979-AD9FC0308966@switchb.org> From: Kevin Reid To: lojban@googlegroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Subject: [lojban] More than you wanted to know about talking about selma'o in Lojban Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 09:41:26 -0400 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 12.154.55.32 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of kpreid@switchb.org) smtp.mail=kpreid@switchb.org X-Original-Sender: kpreid@switchb.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/17b2073501af71db X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/b501698a1796b156 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes [This post is mostly to get my thoughts on a particular matter published, rather than any particular current need or a request to discuss it.] Someone asked recently on #lojban how to refer to a selma'o in Lojban. As you know, in English discussion we conventionally use the identifiers like LAhE, BAI, COI, etc. -- but considered as Lojban words, these are either invalid (due to 'h') or just stressed forms of the particular cmavo rather than their classes. The most logically correct way I have thought of to talk about selma'o is to just use "selma'o". The place structure of {selma'o}, or {se cmavo}, is "x1 is the grammatical class of structure word x2 ...". Therefore, the Lojbanic analog of "LAhE" is: lo selma'o be zo la'e Should it feel unclean to you to use an arbitrary cmavo in the designation of its selma'o, note that mathematicians do it too: this is precisely analogous to the mathematical notation used for an _equivalence class_: (Actually, if you wanted to talk about an *actual* equivalence class, i.e. a set which is that subset of all cmavo, that would be "lo'i cmavo be lo selma'o be zo la'e" -- except that it's debatable whether that is actually different from "lo selma'o be zo la'e"; the former is a pure mathematical set of cmavo and the latter is a selma'o, which is arguably a set-with-extra-information.) -- Kevin Reid -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. 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