From lojban+bncCNuStaWoDxDchILeBBoEF2L_uw@googlegroups.com Sat Apr 10 06:52:24 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f137.google.com ([209.85.211.137]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O0b6h-0008HA-UJ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 06:52:24 -0700 Received: by ywh1 with SMTP id 1sf870423ywh.28 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 06:52:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=kiWfEB+angSZ6QvV01y1CXD6KuoaTWyFCspPzrnwDIM=; b=g0L+AOUo5MVfafB0+DuW9BhdXbtNC5SPM7V024pJ175Jj+o0Jhad9ksV9LBgLoZ+8I nlVscQt9VjZ1ZUKOagONX13VshqGc22q6kS9wk9gqdTXhktcPCenIHJvKqRf4J+wnNsx A27rrJYykpicR8PzxRYy75PXk4S5lt1kjR6Cs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=GmyxqcCeW7W0VkS1de5RlPg1yi0cXRBC2m89eXou/M4jYG51eT5VuugauOv6ZNFia5 00WP4v2KZhS4vNXUe9xaOFgUOG9ZX9guK+ZhPyAdXo5aqUlaUzIIz+CeUk9i5lZvQrHx hMPxlfpgRlMqvlGq+lGclGIDjNVSYn5QIgCtY= Received: by 10.91.93.10 with SMTP id v10mr283970agl.18.1270907485460; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 06:51:25 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.223.66.18 with SMTP id l18ls373784fai.1.p; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 06:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.28.83 with SMTP id l19mr117537fac.27.1270907481954; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 06:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.28.83 with SMTP id l19mr117536fac.27.1270907481925; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 06:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f216.google.com (mail-bw0-f216.google.com [209.85.218.216]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 17si206517fxm.11.2010.04.10.06.51.20; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 06:51:20 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.216 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.218.216; Received: by bwz8 with SMTP id 8so1578124bwz.23 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 06:51:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.154.153 with SMTP id o25mr1698933bkw.68.1270907478939; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 06:51:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.67] (87-194-76-9.bethere.co.uk [87.194.76.9]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d5sm19228182bkd.7.2010.04.10.06.51.17 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 10 Apr 2010 06:51:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4BC08255.1000201@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:51:17 +0100 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] The efficacy of Lojban's grammar. References: <20100405210225.GW6084@digitalkingdom.org> <20100409002127.GA11541@digitalkingdom.org> <201004092108.00980.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4BBFDF2F.6050509@gmail.com> <20100410035904.GS11541@digitalkingdom.org> In-Reply-To: <20100410035904.GS11541@digitalkingdom.org> X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.216 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/c67f210addc06a0c X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/e384059840204ae Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robin Lee Powell, On 10/04/2010 04:59: > On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 03:15:11AM +0100, And Rosta wrote: >> Probably the most fundamentally unnatural and perhaps even >> 'uncognizable' part of Lojban is the formal grammar. The >> structures of the formal grammar are nothing like those found in >> natural languages. And I rather doubt whether anybody does or can >> internalize the formal grammar as part of learning and using >> Lojban;=20 >=20 > When I'm in practice, my statements pass the formal parser (mine, > not the official on) on the order of 95 times out of a hundred. I'd > wager real money on that. >=20 > Certainly 8 or 9 out of 10 is true for all the serious speakers on > IRC. >=20 > I'm really not sure what you're on about here. I don't doubt that the great majority of expert Lojban speakers' utterances= are passed as licit by the formal parser. But I do doubt that the licitnes= s of those utterances is due to the Lojban speaker having internalized the = formal grammar and making active use of it during sentence processing. I wager that syntactic structures that would be assigned to Lojban sentence= s by (1) syntacticians and (2) Lojban speakers would differ very substantia= lly from the syntactic structures assigned by the formal grammar. This is p= artly because the trees (structures) generated by the formal grammar are ve= ry unlike anything found in human language, and partly because human langua= ge syntax is the interface with semantic interpretation, and the formal Loj= ban syntax isn't. The situation is rather as though human speakers when faced with an impossi= bly inhuman grammar construct internally an entirely new, human language wi= th approximately equivalent weak generative capacity (i.e. gives thumbs up = and down to the same candidate sentences as the formal grammar does). --And. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.