From lojban+bncCJGY6cDlFhCajYLeBBoEbkFUqg@googlegroups.com Sat Apr 10 07:09:57 2010 Received: from mail-pz0-f146.google.com ([209.85.222.146]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O0bNd-00050l-W8; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:09:56 -0700 Received: by pzk10 with SMTP id 10sf607840pzk.25 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:09:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:received:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=N6gTDmLMUVajE4m+WUj8DxKI/KeXONMbQlwt4NPgMl8=; b=3TAsn+Hj2tSWT8CaFnuzRZ9wWYHco9qZX6ZBJXadQUiyly02BDxltcBUOPKvZGPByl Ox8mRh+5Ff75clFDU4/RfE1izAO7sA/9LV904QycNPK5bBAVLR5suaye+bOU+l/YXdbL z10NoFGKn1WkAmDiMKvPdTbsIfCj9cc4cyM6g= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=YLEQTDKxLATBdatfrgfde+uVf3iwcHaoMn3jvVPCz1P2iW7GmH4paEnsTSHzYByVtg pKtW+Kws2hAs5rE5+1o9IXCsF79PYLLEk1kMr+oWmXswXe9zfKhcyg0IoeDW209hd3E0 bQtOAu8+WZwNwsCPqtQz6Oofjf9H3bKWsfwxs= Received: by 10.142.249.35 with SMTP id w35mr96841wfh.48.1270908570355; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:09:30 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.250.36 with SMTP id x36ls466385wfh.2.p; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:09:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.143.87.3 with SMTP id p3mr273523wfl.16.1270908567266; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:09:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.143.87.3 with SMTP id p3mr273522wfl.16.1270908567244; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:09:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pw0-f44.google.com (mail-pw0-f44.google.com [209.85.160.44]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si492950pzk.14.2010.04.10.07.09.26; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.44 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.44; Received: by pwj2 with SMTP id 2so3599757pwj.31 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:09:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.109.10 with HTTP; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:09:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4BC08255.1000201@gmail.com> References: <20100405210225.GW6084@digitalkingdom.org> <20100409002127.GA11541@digitalkingdom.org> <201004092108.00980.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4BBFDF2F.6050509@gmail.com> <20100410035904.GS11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BC08255.1000201@gmail.com> From: Oren Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 22:09:06 +0800 Received: by 10.142.5.28 with SMTP id 28mr760699wfe.205.1270908566089; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] The efficacy of Lojban's grammar. To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.44 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=get.oren@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: get.oren@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/c67f210addc06a0c X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/6b5b7024c1b1cdf6 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable .i ti casnu cu culno lo lisri verji'i .a'uru'e "Let usage decide" has a really good interpretation: base arguments off of significant evidence. On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 21:51, And Rosta wrote: > Robin Lee Powell, On 10/04/2010 04:59: >> >> On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 03:15:11AM +0100, And Rosta wrote: >>> >>> Probably the most fundamentally unnatural and perhaps even >>> 'uncognizable' part of Lojban is the formal grammar. The >>> structures of the formal grammar are nothing like those found in >>> natural languages. And I rather doubt whether anybody does or can >>> internalize the formal grammar as part of learning and using >>> Lojban; >> >> When I'm in practice, my statements pass the formal parser (mine, >> not the official on) on the order of 95 times out of a hundred. =A0I'd >> wager real money on that. >> >> Certainly 8 or 9 out of 10 is true for all the serious speakers on >> IRC. >> >> I'm really not sure what you're on about here. > > I don't doubt that the great majority of expert Lojban speakers' utteranc= es > are passed as licit by the formal parser. But I do doubt that the licitne= ss > of those utterances is due to the Lojban speaker having internalized the > formal grammar and making active use of it during sentence processing. > > I wager that syntactic structures that would be assigned to Lojban senten= ces > by (1) syntacticians and (2) Lojban speakers would differ very substantia= lly > from the syntactic structures assigned by the formal grammar. This is par= tly > because the trees (structures) generated by the formal grammar are very > unlike anything found in human language, and partly because human languag= e > syntax is the interface with semantic interpretation, and the formal Lojb= an > syntax isn't. > > The situation is rather as though human speakers when faced with an > impossibly inhuman grammar construct internally an entirely new, human > language with approximately equivalent weak generative capacity (i.e. giv= es > thumbs up and down to the same candidate sentences as the formal grammar > does). > > --And. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.