From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRDZkYLeBBoElZddjg@googlegroups.com Sat Apr 10 07:19:40 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f137.google.com ([209.85.211.137]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O0bX2-0005mT-0E; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:19:39 -0700 Received: by ywh1 with SMTP id 1sf882022ywh.28 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:19:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=22/vouGS9449wMtly2AAZZMWUOHRKKJw5u0kpk8/V/Y=; b=nHzdzWyFy24JekZX+l/quS6fqtoPIx1N6tvyB+AJv+3ZQWhiLTHHZQuG5KIDsdDgp3 OCZ51U5OIf3rDC/Uavl0piFVLtox0RHYPgK4Cpn8Mg2fnlNzcLeCHY8ECPnKLIMAv0cM Vae7+wTUn6SY3uz7Nw8LoMlLJBbV31OX4VTso= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=qST4QzeOA0gT6OF8lOL6fm0UTddidwcXBb4+uzTt/Hzxja4ScMSxFLbanQALRl5uIb so7niEpwnNne+3yIgLwprmhSOBn+Hv1OboiBX2pCzYhsHDS1WhHUFh5E81VzfpLnjhkx tWTdiRI2WkPAnokD0l/ZstJNLjGuFSfoPzlwY= Received: by 10.91.59.20 with SMTP id m20mr290063agk.10.1270909146086; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:19:06 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.32.206 with SMTP id e14ls658849bkd.2.p; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:19:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.162.203 with SMTP id w11mr105727bkx.12.1270909144142; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:19:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.162.203 with SMTP id w11mr105726bkx.12.1270909144101; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:19:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from qw-out-1920.google.com (qw-out-1920.google.com [74.125.92.147]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id v26si2771459bkt.3.2010.04.10.07.19.02; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:19:03 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.92.147 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.92.147; Received: by qw-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 5so420835qwc.40 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:19:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.91.212 with HTTP; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:19:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4BC02ABC.8000300@lojban.org> References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <20100409014708.GB11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BBF197D.6080601@lojban.org> <20100409222518.GN11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BC02ABC.8000300@lojban.org> Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 11:19:02 -0300 Received: by 10.229.186.211 with SMTP id ct19mr2321371qcb.16.1270909142205; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Response to Robin's "Essay on the future of Lojban" From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.92.147 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/33d26e8385fed297 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/ae2b84323d6de32b Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 4:37 AM, Bob LeChevalier wrote: > > On the other hand, Nora just said something that I think profoundly refle= cts > my misgivings. =A0She's tried (far more than I have) to understand xorlo,= but > she just can't get her mind around it. =A0That makes her feel incompetent= at > the language, which is the strongest demotivater for actually using it, m= uch > less doing byfy work. That is a bit worrying. That you claim not to understand it doesn't bother me so much, because I suspect you are not really that interested, but I think Nora shouldn't have any problems. She may be looking in the wrong place. The definition is most clearly given in Lojban itself (as included in the corresponding BPFK section): lo broda =3D zo'e noi ke'a broda Is it really that hard to understand? If you like, you can expand by pointing out that there is nothing about quantifiers or existence or "in the world" or definiteness/indefiniteness, or things like that in there, but that's just in order to contrast it with possible misunderstandings. Or compare it with "fi'o": fi'o: convert selbri to sumti tag. lo: convert selbri to sumti What more needs to be said? Nobody has problems with "fi'o", right? > If Nora and I are at our limit, and we're reasonably bright and were at o= ne > time among the most skilled of Lojbanists, then the concept of byfy > continuing to refine and formalize things even more than they are (and mo= re > than minimally necessary to USE the language) stands to make our investme= nt > in learning the language a waste of time. If I may offer advice, you should stop right now any investment you are making in learning, and start using. The additional learning will come free as a bonus. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.