From lojban+bncCNuStaWoDxC4moLeBBoEC8mgmg@googlegroups.com Sat Apr 10 07:38:08 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O0box-0007GC-37; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:38:08 -0700 Received: by gwj21 with SMTP id 21sf2126419gwj.16 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:37:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=KPKRGWvPAAKWbJ/+q75iWuAXsjnB8N1TW3ptae/UG4s=; b=1duumCwcr1McCzFI2LIpNJCQ503dv6zrnHIJ1VV23cOmSeKlULn4djosbXNzM7r8RZ 1jxlVGlrkjKYYLJtmJYAgNotJAcZm8Oy856wwJQ/vbZodJ3Ynar4STsNGAQDa0qxGpK3 pUzKlHrPFHZ99hO/4EurPSC36vTg5lS+RfBno= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=1DzHYbMeI18dG8mZJNOrRHQnynta2/DOcB0u09lENJuboaFoDQjKG7ft0unIDv4Ps3 /L8Cf/yfJj5cAPuPaOCAScPHXg0CS8XNi4st35n8j5TD8uPtVd82CLjqZvTGv7JM5ptS JXMGdSyu9Nih6TQAouuRMtnHBvypWvD3Kt9VI= Received: by 10.90.62.19 with SMTP id k19mr287663aga.55.1270910264687; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:37:44 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.223.32.71 with SMTP id b7ls380298fad.0.p; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:37:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.44.143 with SMTP id a15mr120367faf.20.1270910263207; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:37:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.44.143 with SMTP id a15mr120366faf.20.1270910263182; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:37:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f213.google.com (mail-bw0-f213.google.com [209.85.218.213]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si211914fxm.9.2010.04.10.07.37.42; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.213 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.218.213; Received: by bwz5 with SMTP id 5so3282965bwz.0 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.7.82 with SMTP id c18mr1680483bkc.97.1270910261776; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:37:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.67] (87-194-76-9.bethere.co.uk [87.194.76.9]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d5sm19566546bkd.1.2010.04.10.07.37.40 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:37:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4BC08D33.3020606@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 15:37:39 +0100 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Response to Robin's "Essay on the future of Lojban" References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <20100409014708.GB11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BBF197D.6080601@lojban.org> <20100409222518.GN11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BC02ABC.8000300@lojban.org> In-Reply-To: <4BC02ABC.8000300@lojban.org> X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.213 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/33d26e8385fed297 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/e83be83e95931a02 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob LeChevalier, On 10/04/2010 08:37: > Arguing with And Rosta gets me upset because it seems clear to me that=20 > he isn't much interested in whether the language is something people can= =20 > and will use to communicate - he wants more formalization and logic. And= =20 > your essay suggests that the "activists" of the community may be closer= =20 > to his camp. I am less certain where you personally are, but you have=20 > considerable credibility with me because you can and do use the language= =20 > competently as it is (as does xorxes) You misunderstand my views and (without malign intent) caricature them. Her= e are my key views. 1. A language is a tool for communication. 2. A usable logical language (which I take to be one that unambiguously enc= odes predicate--argument structure in a way that is no more longwinded than= natural language and that is within general human cognitive abilities) wou= ld be a wonderful tool to have. Partly this is because we could potentially= learn so much from the tool itself. But partly it is because *using* such = a tool to *communicate* could be a great boon to the world. 3. Lojban is not a usable logical language and can't be tinkered into one. = [I used to think it could perhaps be tinkered into one.] 4. The community of Loglan/Lojban project is the focal community for people= with an interest into bringing into being and into use a usable logical la= nguage. Not everybody in the community has that interest, and not everybody= with that interest is in the community, but there is no other community of= people with this interest. It seems to me that those views take me outside the scope of the debate Rob= in has initiated, since they don't pertain to Lojban proper. With regard to= Lojban proper, I have no particular personal stake or agenda, merely goodw= ill to the community. I naturally find it easier to sympathize with those w= ho wish for the key foundations of the language to be regular and explicitl= y declared rather than to merely emerge, in the manner of a pidgin, from us= age, so I'm happy to give Robin what support I can. And I *genuinely* can't= understand on what grounds you think it would be a good thing for the spec= ification ('prescription' in your words) to remain unchanged and for such a= language's speech community to grow, or on what grounds you think that the= possession and lack of comparative fluency in this pidgin respectively con= fer and deny credibility. --And. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.