From lojban+bncCNuStaWoDxDbooLeBBoENpvZeA@googlegroups.com Sat Apr 10 07:55:47 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f137.google.com ([209.85.211.137]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O0c61-00085U-Ru; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:55:46 -0700 Received: by ywh1 with SMTP id 1sf893900ywh.28 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:55:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=N7g6sYxuG4RfK0w2kROIgjuZHt2Q2pxagnvT1ocqST4=; b=1yyaF74Rf9BF577Dw9Y7xgSWR8GQuaKDMk9/LTlPzfasvu6c8yk8zdK2atJuxrL385 ApkAHsy41u+56P/r3I7P+gQbOTLA+kZWIdqzZI25BmZvHZazi+nnJ44miz8WDWbA5Yvu hlPXMbAGWm0qtkJtlCI/ToWo+lMdcqgJbn8tM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ajJWxBGRf/JTiaRx73mHnxaLhDIknB6tOADBMbogDBcOQhTU2KvL9AOBs2SVT0axM5 trt39PgX1ZN6t3X5Dwgl1FqiB9QpeWU2eS4jHGCOIZKuxsGeklCPXPbMoNjNY/1TGRZZ r2E+mNp8yfUJm7bbwbb473wmr9mmRGs7pEMpQ= Received: by 10.91.185.15 with SMTP id m15mr292263agp.19.1270911323641; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:55:23 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.223.147.144 with SMTP id l16ls383302fav.3.p; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:55:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.63.147 with SMTP id b19mr121400fai.29.1270911322173; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:55:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.63.147 with SMTP id b19mr121399fai.29.1270911322153; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:55:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f228.google.com (mail-bw0-f228.google.com [209.85.218.228]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 11si212500fxm.10.2010.04.10.07.55.21; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:55:21 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.228 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.218.228; Received: by bwz28 with SMTP id 28so3099163bwz.34 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:55:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.152.2 with SMTP id e2mr1715424bkw.81.1270911320859; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:55:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.67] (87-194-76-9.bethere.co.uk [87.194.76.9]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 24sm19634870bkr.18.2010.04.10.07.55.19 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:55:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4BC09157.10507@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 15:55:19 +0100 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Response ro Robin's "Essay on the future of Lojban" References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <20100409014708.GB11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BBF5FB4.5070608@gmail.com> <4BBFA03B.8030706@perpetuum-immobile.de> In-Reply-To: <4BBFA03B.8030706@perpetuum-immobile.de> X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.228 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/33d26e8385fed297 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/8de1287c4435646a Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Timo Paulssen, On 09/04/2010 22:46: > And Rosta wrote: >> A language is a system of rules mapping between sounds and meanings. >> By that sensible definition, Lojban is nowhere near "pretty close to >> good enough". The so-called 'grammar' doesn't deserve to be called a >> grammar, since all it does is give meaningless structures to >> phonological strings. CLL does make a start on the definition of the >> rules of Lojban, but only a start. Some users of Lojban don't realize >> how meaningless or semantically indeterminate their utterances are. >> Some, I presume, don't care. Others are frustrated. And perhaps in a >> small Lojban-speaking enclave of Argentina, they've created their own >> much more complete dialect. >=20 > I'm neither in the "don't care" nor in the "is frustrated" camp. Please > explain what you mean by "meaningless or semantically indeterminate"? Bob would be in the Don't Care camp and Robin in the Frustrated, for a larg= e chunk of BPFK work had to do with the attempt to specify what stuff means= . For many syntagms (phrases, etc) one is simply not sure what the meaning of= the whole is, even though one knows the meaning of the parts -- because th= e specifications of the language don't state how the meaning of the whole i= s formed. I'm not talking about tanru vagueness but rather clear semantic a= mbiguities such as over quantifier scope. Lojban list used to be absolutely= awash with discussion of these, in the days before the BPFK. I'm reasonabl= y sure that a workable set of rules for compositional semantics exists in x= orxes's mind, so the prospects for Lojban, under Robin's reforms, getting a= n adequate compositional semantics strike me as fairly rosy. --And. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.