From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCBtoLeBBoEw75ZBQ@googlegroups.com Sat Apr 10 08:36:58 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O0cjr-0002PB-VV; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 08:36:57 -0700 Received: by gwj21 with SMTP id 21sf2150684gwj.16 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 08:36:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:date:from:subject:to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=sB7HBauwKjBsWayEMeACQQkcP+vq88rUXkdLj4lAd5o=; b=vojLapckK3/luOUa8KqKTvkaFj0L67rIs9/Xs37UxAn1qwl5IAfbcSIOiwcuXdrGzb VmqCVvzfpVMRYfb03N096+3buSEoyRnt4WRHwV0hsrSTf2T61BFh5PmLicvLg+EyuAUp i2L+MrXrNF9GT0NtP/Evfgy53xej2dhlxU7qQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:date:from :subject:to:mime-version:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=U4x7w+oCecEy1T72u2TBY3hdnJgA0KAi8zJcCRPAIDoRN+N0+zquZ1kYVl8t51GSnk EdK6f9XIKSVHEMA3EmnTOuCAkSn0vcIqAMcq01nVkuD+n/3ELnfx1jI4/Y36B8AjsoEe J3+HvUIh/GDMEmBL0AmjRzhKLk75E72UHNEJE= Received: by 10.101.29.37 with SMTP id g37mr52176anj.9.1270913793167; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 08:36:33 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.90.216.14 with SMTP id o14ls167422agg.5.p; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 08:36:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.49.14 with SMTP id b14mr1744352agk.14.1270913792060; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 08:36:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.49.14 with SMTP id b14mr1744350agk.14.1270913792022; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 08:36:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.120]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id 24si118001yxe.5.2010.04.10.08.36.31; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 08:36:32 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.120 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.120; Received: (qmail 11078 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Apr 2010 15:36:31 -0000 Message-ID: <569218.10764.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: FVJ9lgsVM1k._bhn8fJEFZVhzNuwvW7aLQVR97r8tSAVLKl hdh1Or2TNvIttfpdyQIviePgFHZKgpFugP3dMoFjECN1iwvgyVTvLsmcvzSk tWXNeK2O_Y8jMzgQuVCgol0_I24rxxmG28RM8V_9hJ6GSEZZ5S.WhS6YGd76 .KSKVRCEOM2vTSXuaTvDF7KzjHFzmomQAEqBwiYZEqjylLXfZuXg3UeUZbMo dvhrB2XkfkNw7XKRsfvvfjGwVH_DmVvse5UE3Z6EnsR49ztdBZMrEZjnKlry Y3QBdzmJMHEBCZDqkt3pp8zRc8Qyl Received: from [71.14.73.129] by web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 08:36:31 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/348.3 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 08:36:31 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: [lojban] Intermediate thoughts To: lojban list MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.120 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=neutral (body hash did not verify) header.i=@yahoo.com X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/ee19b6a6e94a4e1d X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/b410e8d4b2adf66e Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lojaban grammar is a worst-case grammar (as any reasonably complete grammar= would be); it has to account for events that might occur once in 10,000 se= ntences or less often -- even for things that will, in fact, never occur. = Figuring out how to deal with these can be a life-time job. Meanwhile, peo= ple fear that the language they use everyday -- with features that occur in= every third sentence or so -- is unstable. So, to calm them a bit --and t= o get on with the work still at hand, we need to stabilize the core: the ba= sic bridi pattern, modifier-modified pattern to a reasonable depth (less th= an the good old "five plus or minus two"), embedding quotations (maybe just= a few real ones, not the elaborate mass we currently have), embedding a fe= w common abstractions, first order sentence folding, negation (at least how= 'na' works), quantifiers, le/lo and a few expansions on these (though I ca= n't think of one that is really needed at this level), subordinate sumti. And so on -- add your own. Then, from that base-- and keeping consistent with it -- solve the rest. Unfortunately, of course, most of the controversial issues are in just that= base (which is all the Lojban most people ever learn). So get them out, h= ash them out (again) for a while (say a month) and then declare a winner. On cultural words: be analytic. Have predicates for the basic notions you = want: language, cultural feature, territory, sex games, etc.and fill in wit= h the appropriate name in the x2 slot. New culture, new name in the slot. = If you find you want to talk about it a lot, THEN make up a predicate. The 'five plus or minus two" rule was derived from experiments using random= objects (typically numbers); it takes no account of perceived patterns (I = can remember longer numbers if there are repetitions, for example) and conn= ections. So, things like 'klama', where every slot makes sense, present fe= w problems as compared to some of the others, which don't (although their b= latant irrelevance is sometimes a good hook). On redundancy: there are over 4000 three consonant combinations in the Lojb= an alphabet, which, combined with 25 vowel combinations and two arrangemen= ts, gives a couple hundred thousand words of gismu form (even stripping out= impossibles for phonetic reasons). A random pick of two thousand (say) fro= m this would give the kind of redundancy that Lojban needs. Of course, thi= s ain;t gonna happen, since most of the energy put into learning Lojban is = memorizing those gismu -- and cmavo, of course. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.