From lojban+bncCMDl9o3BFBCQ1YPeBBoEZVbbkw@googlegroups.com Sat Apr 10 14:16:27 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f137.google.com ([209.85.211.137]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O0i2Q-0005FB-U3; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:16:27 -0700 Received: by ywh1 with SMTP id 1sf1031410ywh.28 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:16:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:mime-version :subject:from:in-reply-to:date:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=W6hcxkdb+Sia5i26IPqfcwmDYutqUf9dQ/mYNS/BrwQ=; b=OnLhhSSz4FJymFsgnzew36XpN0nULOLIb3JbPWd4ij/UbtF6dZAC6n755Cd1QyGL8L ZpJTYgIhCpltakXORjE6tfFogMd+LYI5rE3ZFJ0SRwFK7bG9HI18gq0jKF0XtOwHonL+ K+0x7JcqwL/fIVCnzg5owwW//5kEN6/FV0vUk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :message-id:references:to:x-mailer:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=lEHafEccUzSSa8QzMfsBZbJUSYD0Wfqhz+V6oogppXyEaFUP9FivosbFbsYW87r145 kLViijLaX4ajzYapXYIIouGKuheNy+5VNabvZ0+WuelOzvi73YIh35DzeMDUcQhJuwDd BkLf009HaTCPFRKN7ku1ZxD1UGd6LSizAwQ7U= Received: by 10.150.174.5 with SMTP id w5mr49721ybe.46.1270934161015; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:16:01 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.32.206 with SMTP id e14ls776348bkd.2.p; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:15:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.152.26 with SMTP id e26mr133331bkw.18.1270934158690; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.152.26 with SMTP id e26mr133330bkw.18.1270934158649; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f181.google.com (mail-wy0-f181.google.com [74.125.82.181]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id v26si3147790bkt.7.2010.04.10.14.15.57; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:15:57 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of michael.everson@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.181 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.181; Received: by wyj26 with SMTP id 26so804092wyj.12 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:15:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.86.71 with SMTP id v49mr1081917wee.14.1270934157363; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:15:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (murrisk2.westnet.ie [88.81.100.235]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id u14sm1397401gvf.17.2010.04.10.14.15.56 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:15:56 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1078) Subject: Re: [lojban] Response ro Robin's "Essay on the future of Lojban" From: Michael Everson In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 22:15:55 +0100 Message-Id: <132833F1-0520-4DCB-BDDE-312E4376FCDA@gmail.com> References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <20100409014708.GB11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BBF5FB4.5070608@gmail.com> <4BBF76A1.4000604@lojban.org> <4BBFF024.2080101@gmail.com> <4BC0355D.1010508@lojban.org> <4BC0B3CE.5040005@gmail.com> <8CCA6F068EC8210-1A3C-934F@webmail-d035.sysops.aol.com> To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1078) X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of michael.everson@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.181 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=michael.everson@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: michael.everson@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/33d26e8385fed297 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/162c8bd46d119cc1 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 10 Apr 2010, at 21:52, Yoav Nir wrote: > Well, linguists consider linguistics to be a science, not a branch of engineering, and science is always descriptive, not prescriptive. Nonsense. Linguists also study orthography and the relation between "standard" dialect and orthography and literacy and a host of other topics which relate to "prescription". > So, yes, they consider all conlangs as games, as opposed to languages people actually speak, which are "natural" phenomena worthy of study. Oh, do keep your generalizations to yourself. This is really annoying. > As And said, a language is real to them only if it has native speakers, and all constructed languages, including even Esperanto, are at best second languages. Untrue. Untrue. Untrue. > (now somebody's going to link to some parents raising their kids in esperanto, Thousands of kids were raised as native speakers of Esperanto. > or to that guy who tried to teach his kid Klingon as a first language, Anomaly, everyone knows that. > but these are very small exceptions, and those kids grow up to speak the environment's language, not the constructed language they heard at home) Please go do some homework. Michael -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.