From lojban+bncCK6u3p69DBDP3IPeBBoElAsHMQ@googlegroups.com Sat Apr 10 14:32:22 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O0iHp-00068c-OS; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:32:22 -0700 Received: by vws14 with SMTP id 14sf389140vws.16 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:32:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:received :references:to:subject:date:x-aol-ip:in-reply-to:x-mb-message-source :mime-version:from:x-mb-message-type:x-mailer:received:message-id :x-spam-flag:x-aol-sender:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=D8e0y7QgqVTJkRAlPS+rS5s0o1ShXQIEEp2+eb2IDeQ=; b=kYAxzaSx0CUbwvMhmSPgPG/EosN9PCEOuHvf8E7uNQ6IDweUmWRZDjtQXv+bywB/9p 8wllWcwlVUIhWVivSjy7n6JDKnQTlM+ro3V+4o6D9ZdjVroWNsbUwU6A5IQ2y8Riy+5F ssKO6OxgclR2hPykr8JVWv/dJL3I8aFA58grM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; 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Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imr-db02.mx.aol.com (imr-db02.mx.aol.com [205.188.91.96]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 21si6863116vws.1.2010.04.10.14.31.57; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of Thirderivative@aol.com designates 205.188.91.96 as permitted sender) client-ip=205.188.91.96; Received: from imo-da01.mx.aol.com (imo-da01.mx.aol.com [205.188.169.199]) by imr-db02.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o3ALVoSt017516 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 17:31:50 -0400 Received: from Thirderivative@aol.com by imo-da01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.9.) id r.deb.19dadb6 (56006) for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 17:31:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtprly-da02.mx.aol.com (smtprly-da02.mx.aol.com [205.188.249.145]) by cia-md07.mx.aol.com (v127_r1.2) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMD074-5bb74bc0ee403be; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 17:31:45 -0400 Received: from Webmail-d124 (webmail-d124.sim.aol.com [205.188.108.140]) by smtprly-da02.mx.aol.com (v127_r1.2) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYDA026-5bb74bc0ee403be; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 17:31:44 -0400 References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <20100409014708.GB11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BBF5FB4.5070608@gmail.com> <4BBF76A1.4000604@lojban.org> <4BBFF024.2080101@gmail.com> <4BC0355D.1010508@lojban.org> <4BC0B3CE.5040005@gmail.com> <8CCA6F068EC8210-1A3C-934F@webmail-d035.sysops.aol.com> <132833F1-0520-4DCB-BDDE-312E4376FCDA@gmail.com> To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Response ro Robin's "Essay on the future of Lojban" Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 17:31:44 -0400 X-AOL-IP: 76.8.216.14 In-Reply-To: <132833F1-0520-4DCB-BDDE-312E4376FCDA@gmail.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Seth X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 31423-STANDARD Received: from 76.8.216.14 by Webmail-d124.sysops.aol.com (205.188.108.140) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Sat, 10 Apr 2010 17:31:44 -0400 Message-Id: <8CCA70C59E211E4-1AB8-1DCB3@Webmail-d124.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag: NO X-AOL-SENDER: Thirderivative@aol.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of Thirderivative@aol.com designates 205.188.91.96 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=Thirderivative@aol.com X-Original-Sender: thirderivative@aol.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/33d26e8385fed297 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/1ae6e2d6c8ddf10f Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CCA70C59E6D4AA_1AB8_3AED2_Webmail-d124.sysops.aol.com" ----------MB_8CCA70C59E6D4AA_1AB8_3AED2_Webmail-d124.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 i dont know... all but a few of my classmates and professors all but spit w= hen prescriptivism, conlangs, or orthographies are mentioned. those things = aren't "real linguistics" to them. when i have told them about Esperanto ha= ving natives, they entirely disregard the phenomenon as "not important". ma= ybe my ling department is just particularly biased, but it is a large depar= tment, not just one isolated nazi. -----Original Message----- From: Michael Everson To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, Apr 10, 2010 3:15 pm Subject: Re: [lojban] Response ro Robin's "Essay on the future of Lojban" On 10 Apr 2010, at 21:52, Yoav Nir wrote: > Well, linguists consider linguistics to be a science, not a branch of=20 engineering, and science is always descriptive, not prescriptive. Nonsense. Linguists also study orthography and the relation between "standa= rd"=20 dialect and orthography and literacy and a host of other topics which relat= e to=20 "prescription". > So, yes, they consider all conlangs as games, as opposed to languages peo= ple=20 actually speak, which are "natural" phenomena worthy of study. Oh, do keep your generalizations to yourself. This is really annoying. > As And said, a language is real to them only if it has native speakers, a= nd=20 all constructed languages, including even Esperanto, are at best second=20 languages. Untrue. Untrue. Untrue. > (now somebody's going to link to some parents raising their kids in esper= anto, Thousands of kids were raised as native speakers of Esperanto. > or to that guy who tried to teach his kid Klingon as a first language, Anomaly, everyone knows that. > but these are very small exceptions, and those kids grow up to speak the= =20 environment's language, not the constructed language they heard at home) Please go do some homework. Michael --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. ----------MB_8CCA70C59E6D4AA_1AB8_3AED2_Webmail-d124.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 i dont know... all but a few of my c= lassmates and professors all but spit when prescriptivism, conlangs, or ort= hographies are mentioned. those things aren't "real linguistics" to them. w= hen i have told them about Esperanto having natives, they entirely disregar= d the phenomenon as "not important". maybe my ling department is just parti= cularly biased, but it is a large department, not just one isolated nazi.



-----= Original Message-----
From: Michael Everson <michael.everson@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, Apr 10, 2010 3:15 pm
Subject: Re: [lojban] Response ro Robin's "Essay on the future of Lojban" 
On 10 Apr 2010, at 21:52, Yoav Nir wrote=
:

> Well, linguists consider linguistics to be a science, not a branch of=
=20
engineering, and science is always descriptive, not prescriptive.

Nonsense. Linguists also study orthography and the relation between "standa=
rd"=20
dialect and orthography and literacy and a host of other topics which relat=
e to=20
"prescription".

> So, yes, they consider all conlangs as games, as opposed to languages =
people=20
actually speak, which are "natural" phenomena worthy of study.

Oh, do keep your generalizations to yourself. This is really annoying.

> As And said, a language is real to them only if it has native speakers=
, and=20
all constructed languages, including even Esperanto, are at best second=20
languages.

Untrue. Untrue. Untrue.

> (now somebody's going to link to some parents raising their kids in es=
peranto,

Thousands of kids were raised as native speakers of Esperanto.

> or to that guy who tried to teach his kid Klingon as a first language,

Anomaly, everyone knows that.

> but these are very small exceptions, and those kids grow up to speak t=
he=20
environment's language, not the constructed language they heard at home)

Please go do some homework.

Michael

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups=
=20
"lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba=
n?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
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