From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDH3YPeBBoEvFqZfA@googlegroups.com Sat Apr 10 14:34:23 2010 Received: from mail-pw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.160.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O0iJl-0006Hj-MG; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:34:23 -0700 Received: by pwi3 with SMTP id 3sf1356061pwi.16 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:34:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=lrfo9ioSpWUREM0BO1Ko0cJCxmG8B3DicM2c2YOnwRc=; b=UZj7/XL+gUkWshl2BaC1sOcu0JoJ+kKK/C+3M1+RnBBKfWTp5DbSKkWFhC/ncdfV17 2qIH1EybF595lF/L0SYX9lX7EvU4hiCol+tkAVxCwZiBBxWqZgjOtumZuwd76mN6hPhz c3IL6vaowVTlOe4KIKQ4nlxjwge5fEjNIOpQY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=sRsXOG24hIpjfo+WSNHGziIkGWhGiHxpDVLzNptIS5LAqAZ0ux+0wujLXsTwpr156d HLiECNBgAhRLFN2fDj9+kzg+9sosWEMNjZRQ6TsaHQdCDw3lPFmyZ9tQaLe44MAfADb8 jZGH99gs/Ib5VvceQpNolmUl1oAxuxywqJejY= Received: by 10.141.12.7 with SMTP id p7mr204495rvi.6.1270935239233; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:33:59 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.255.17 with SMTP id c17ls741713rvi.2.p; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:33:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.91.10 with SMTP id t10mr332565rvl.13.1270935236530; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:33:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.91.10 with SMTP id t10mr332564rvl.13.1270935236345; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:33:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f53.google.com (mail-vw0-f53.google.com [209.85.212.53]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 19si553943pzk.7.2010.04.10.14.33.54; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.53; Received: by mail-vw0-f53.google.com with SMTP id 3so1120790vws.12 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:33:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.167.140 with HTTP; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:33:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20100405210225.GW6084@digitalkingdom.org> <20100409002127.GA11541@digitalkingdom.org> <201004092108.00980.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4BBFDF2F.6050509@gmail.com> <20100410035904.GS11541@digitalkingdom.org> Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 17:33:54 -0400 Received: by 10.220.123.214 with SMTP id q22mr874263vcr.234.1270935234790; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:33:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] The efficacy of Lojban's grammar. From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.53 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/c67f210addc06a0c X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/7a30cc8e88985619 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636d348c333c60f0483e8ab0a --001636d348c333c60f0483e8ab0a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 ta'o > "lo melbi ko > li'i cerni" (have a beautiful morning, or literally, be the > experiencer of a beautiful experience of a morning). I'm having a little trouble parsing this myself. Let's see. {lo melbi ko li'i cerni} -> {lo melbi ku cu li'i cerni ko} ? Could someone with a bit more knowledge break it down correctly for me? How many sumti are there, which chunk is the selbri (if any), etc... Thanks. ta'onai As illustrated by my question, I'm still not anything like "fluent" in lojban. However, those sentences that I do put together when I'm practicing are also parseable 8/9 out of 10 times. On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 6:53 AM, Stela Selckiku wrote: > On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 11:59 PM, Robin Lee Powell > wrote: > > > > When I'm in practice, my statements pass the formal parser (mine, > > not the official on) on the order of 95 times out of a hundred. I'd > > wager real money on that. > > > > Certainly 8 or 9 out of 10 is true for all the serious speakers on > > IRC. > > > Agreed! > > It's quite easy actually to speak properly parsing Lojban. Most of > the time it's entirely habitual, not so much using your understanding > of the grammar directly, but rather pattern-recognizing a wide variety > of familiar conventional forms. It's only rarely that you produce or > encounter a sentence shape that dips into the complexities of the > grammar to find something new. > > For instance I'm reminded of my recent joy at the phrase "lo melbi ko > li'i cerni" (have a beautiful morning, or literally, be the > experiencer of a beautiful experience of a morning). Joy because of > the *rareness* of that, of being hit by something in Lojban which I > still had to think twice in order to parse! > > But of course if I hear now "xu lo xlali do li'i zgike" (are you not > enjoying the music, or literally, are you the experiencer of a bad > experience of music) or "lo milxe ko'a ti'e li'i lenku" (ko'a said > it's only a little cold, or literally, ko'a is, I hear, the > experiencer of a mild experience of cold), it doesn't make me feel > quite the same way again. The fresh joy is spent-- I've added that > form to my repertoire as one that I can hear and use without effort. > > > mi'e la stela selckiku > mu'o > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --001636d348c333c60f0483e8ab0a Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ta'o

> "lo me= lbi ko
> li'i cerni" (have a beautiful morning, or literally, be the> experiencer of a beautiful experience of a morning).

I'm having a little trouble parsing this m= yself. =A0Let's see. =A0{lo melbi ko li'i cerni} =A0-> =A0{lo me= lbi ku cu li'i cerni ko} ?

Could someone with = a bit more knowledge break it down correctly for me? =A0How many sumti are = there, which chunk is the selbri (if any), etc...=A0
Thanks.

ta'onai

= As illustrated by my question, I'm still not anything like "fluent= " in lojban. =A0However, those sentences that I do put together when I= 'm practicing are also parseable 8/9 out of 10 times.

On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 6:53 AM, Stela = Selckiku <selcki= ku@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 11:59 PM, Robin Lee Powell
<rlpowell@digitalkingdom.= org> wrote:
>
> When I'm in practice, my statements pass the formal parser (mine,<= br> > not the official on) on the order of 95 times out of a hundred. =A0I&#= 39;d
> wager real money on that.
>
> Certainly 8 or 9 out of 10 is true for all the serious speakers on
> IRC.


Agreed!

It's quite easy actually to speak properly parsing Lojban. =A0Most of the time it's entirely habitual, not so much using your understanding of the grammar directly, but rather pattern-recognizing a wide variety
of familiar conventional forms. =A0It's only rarely that you produce or=
encounter a sentence shape that dips into the complexities of the
grammar to find something new.

For instance I'm reminded of my recent joy at the phrase "lo melbi= ko
li'i cerni" (have a beautiful morning, or literally, be the
experiencer of a beautiful experience of a morning). =A0Joy because of
the *rareness* of that, of being hit by something in Lojban which I
still had to think twice in order to parse!

But of course if I hear now "xu lo xlali do li'i zgike" (are = you not
enjoying the music, or literally, are you the experiencer of a bad
experience of music) or "lo milxe ko'a ti'e li'i lenku&quo= t; (ko'a said
it's only a little cold, or literally, ko'a is, I hear, the
experiencer of a mild experience of cold), it doesn't make me feel
quite the same way again. =A0The fresh joy is spent-- I've added that form to my repertoire as one that I can hear and use without effort.


mi'e la stela selckiku
mu'o

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