From 31f60SwsJBtQBKA4014H64D6C08B.2ECBE910D6EE6B46HEKFI.2EC@groups.bounces.google.com Thu Apr 01 13:15:46 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f167.google.com ([209.85.221.167]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <31f60SwsJBtQBKA4014H64D6C08B.2ECBE910D6EE6B46HEKFI.2EC@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NxQnj-00069c-FT for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:15:46 -0700 Received: by qyk39 with SMTP id 39sf2490047qyk.23 for ; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:15:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=Uo6DYqStkXZ5vrOaCuEWjZoY/Er4sKc9LE0ndjV7pac=; b=wpzBypRYPQxNju9lsjZ+tmNZRL2Hb7f3Nacl3lc/sW37WcGltBob2fZ1EQ2XHrJbjO tYmwou4QF9iWYoUm4uFcQtxUjJCK/krY9qj12OmZLDw0hFALdlo/+SrLmOioQZoDvaEw ivIAIq7zb/ms/4uWl0baEt8nEzexhEqVK8ofo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=Hl3OXwYqli53RK4zblRcD3QUm32dvAEnuMZNV/ZD6ndeiQeU22SwooZZsyfMxKLH1b l3hdXF0uZTZItlok83te5YWdw9jwchcxKEzDsEYwDaQ+IQuMu1e7IQPtXIcy8JcmZh5g 7QH8g1dvJGhjE23WXriKe/pMHSSNny/El5Fb8= Received: by 10.224.97.221 with SMTP id m29mr33929qan.31.1270152917828; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:15:17 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.32.10 with SMTP id a10ls42792qad.2.p; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:15:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.1.211 with SMTP id 19mr76394qag.20.1270152916420; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:15:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.1.211 with SMTP id 19mr76393qag.20.1270152916376; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:15:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f42.google.com (mail-vw0-f42.google.com [209.85.212.42]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 19si880617qyk.5.2010.04.01.13.15.15; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:15:15 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.42 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.42; Received: by vws8 with SMTP id 8so293226vws.29 for ; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:15:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.100.73 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 13:15:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <633B09E0-855E-4A29-B03C-F3CD157CE0DA@gmail.com> References: <2320FCB7-86FE-4E30-9F24-DAD6E40024D7@evertype.com> <5715b9301003291055w30fb5313p8bd52a84f7fa1e6a@mail.gmail.com> <20100329205514.GA24462@sdf.lonestar.org> <59210F50-EF9A-4C81-8CF0-E2B1AE760F9C@gmail.com> <633B09E0-855E-4A29-B03C-F3CD157CE0DA@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 16:15:15 -0400 Received: by 10.220.126.222 with SMTP id d30mr737130vcs.78.1270152915127; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:15:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/c535175e16472caa Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e68f9f1e51102804833285aa --0016e68f9f1e51102804833285aa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I think it's unfair that you keep using the argument that the lojban community is not all in agreement. Can you find me one group of more than 1 in the world that agrees on everything about a subject? I highly doubt that you will. On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Michael Everson wrote: > On 1 Apr 2010, at 20:14, Michael Turniansky wrote: > > > I can't make heads or tales of the Latin transliteration (not to mention > that you cause homophones to know be > > homonyms as well), but I can understand the Yiddish in Yiddish, and it > looks a lot prettier, IMHO. > > Fine, but that's not universal. Yes, it is traditional. But it is by no > means unusual today. For instance, scholar Leonard Wolf translated Winnie > The Pooh unto Yiddish, and this was published with one page in Hebrew script > and the rest in Latin. > > See http://www.amazon.com/VINI-Yiddish-Version-Winnie-Pooh/dp/0525463380/ > > > (Which there again, goes to your purpose in doing your project, and where > it clashes with the old guard of > > lojbanists. > > But not with all Lojbanists, it must be admitted. > > > Are you writing it in Latin to look pretty, or to be correct, or both? > > What, the Yiddish? Or the Lojban? > > > Clearly, the Yiddish in Latin isn't "correct" in any meaningful sense > (Sure, one transliterates short excerpts of stuff in otherwise surrounding > English text, for pragmatic reasons, but I don't think that's an excuse to > do an entire book that way). > > The Cat in the Hat was also done in Yiddish, bi-scriptally (with the > Yiddish in Latin and in Hebrew both). See > http://www.amazon.com/dp/0972693904/ > > > So if you are just interested in doing Alice in Latin alphabets, > > I don't rule out the possibility of a Hebrew-script Yiddish Alice. The > translator and I have agreed to discuss that in due course. But there's no > question that there is a market for a Latin-script Yiddish Alice, as I said: > Carrollians, Germanicists, and Jews who don't find Hebrew script inviting. > And that isn't such an unusual thing. > > > regardless of of language why don't you (warning -- the following is not > a straw man, since you say you don't believe in them anyhow :-) Simply > print a version in "gibberish", which a mathematical algortihm to use > > reasonable word and sentence lengths, and perhaps reasonable > consonant/vowel sequencing. > > Well. I *am* preparing a Shaw alphabet edition. > > > (Gee, I'm glad toady is April 1st, so I can say this stuff adn not be > taken too seriously, but that is exactly > > the kind of vibe I get from you when you dig in your heels about issues > that the linguistic community feels are nonnegotiable points) > > Well, the linguistic community is not all at one on this point. > > I hope to be able to put my thoughts together about narrative and discuss > that in the coming days. > > Michael > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016e68f9f1e51102804833285aa Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think it's unfair that you keep using the argument that the lojban co= mmunity is not all in agreement. =A0Can you find me one group of more than = 1 in the world that agrees on everything about a subject? =A0I highly doubt= that you will.

On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Michael Ever= son <mich= ael.everson@gmail.com> wrote:
On 1 Apr 2010, at 20:14, Michael Turniansky wrote:

> I can't make heads or tales of the Latin transliteration (not to m= ention that you cause homophones to know be
> homonyms as well), but I can understand the Yiddish in Yiddish, and it= looks a lot prettier, IMHO.

Fine, but that's not universal. Yes, it is traditional. But it is= by no means unusual today. For instance, scholar Leonard Wolf translated W= innie The Pooh unto Yiddish, and this was published with one page in Hebrew= script and the rest in Latin.

See http://www.amazon.com/VINI-Yiddish-Version-Win= nie-Pooh/dp/0525463380/

> (Which there again, goes to your purpose in doing your project, and wh= ere it clashes with the old guard of
> lojbanists.

But not with all Lojbanists, it must be admitted.

> Are you writing it in Latin to look pretty, or to be correct, or both?=

What, the Yiddish? Or the Lojban?

> Clearly, the Yiddish in Latin isn't "correct" in any mea= ningful sense (Sure, one transliterates short excerpts of stuff in otherwis= e surrounding English text, for pragmatic reasons, but I don't think th= at's an excuse to do an entire book that way).

The Cat in the Hat was also done in Yiddish, bi-scriptally (with the = Yiddish in Latin and in Hebrew both). See http://www.amazon.com/dp/0972693904/<= br>

> So if you are just interested in doing Alice in Latin alphabets,

I don't rule out the possibility of a Hebrew-script Yiddish Alice= . The translator and I have agreed to discuss that in due course. But there= 's no question that there is a market for a Latin-script Yiddish Alice,= as I said: Carrollians, Germanicists, and Jews who don't find Hebrew s= cript inviting. And that isn't such an unusual thing.

> regardless of of language why don't you (warning -- the following = is not a straw man, since you say you don't believe in them anyhow =A0:= -) =A0Simply print a version in "gibberish", which a mathematical= algortihm to use
> reasonable word and sentence lengths, and perhaps reasonable consonant= /vowel sequencing.

Well. I *am* preparing a Shaw alphabet edition.

> (Gee, I'm glad toady is April 1st, so I can say this stuff adn not= be taken too seriously, but that is exactly
> the kind of vibe I get from you when you dig in your heels about issue= s that the linguistic community feels are nonnegotiable points)

Well, the linguistic community is not all at one on this point.

I hope to be able to put my thoughts together about narrative and discuss t= hat in the coming days.

Michael

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