From lojban+bncCJ2w4Zy_AhDC74PeBBoEhszuKg@googlegroups.com Sat Apr 10 15:12:41 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O0iuq-0008UO-Rc; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 15:12:41 -0700 Received: by vws14 with SMTP id 14sf401752vws.16 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 15:12:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:received:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=C/Dx1A+GjZDyI1lgdp72Dl0frzWhxDaLYlchtvI9yoI=; b=CUas7LJnMH0IScxjOnSQOrSMZVaoCWj2bZmT7Hsr44wbXKPXqN/u+kpvQHQHzXHRxX N112oTvj+GhSJ7QvLkuhm6xYMCO1hUBJTvlb7IBagje0Oj3zjDwkvFYz/LKDFUjpMUHG QTYdboh5o+/pBwi3lbvNqWN2bOqIW/oWmUKlc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=yLxGTbrkm8v2OE9ukgsnamCM7Y5536SDifEV4BoSxefW5gcw1IZZKWo3nMij79iQaN qh6JTcFfdcQlqAlNdf0MBZnJ6LPVM0ooMmVzF97JfJP+GLS4WY9/1J6qUj+h794uaK8/ NrToj1yItk6MiDEU81Va6sqfUB186o+Ot1z7s= Received: by 10.220.127.15 with SMTP id e15mr147580vcs.23.1270937538734; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 15:12:18 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.47.17 with SMTP id l17ls410029vcf.5.p; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 15:12:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.170.65 with SMTP id c1mr413441vcz.13.1270937537460; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 15:12:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.170.65 with SMTP id c1mr413439vcz.13.1270937537421; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 15:12:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gw0-f47.google.com (mail-gw0-f47.google.com [74.125.83.47]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 27si6931568vws.5.2010.04.10.15.12.16; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 15:12:16 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.47 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.83.47; Received: by gwj21 with SMTP id 21so1974876gwj.34 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 15:12:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.5.20 with HTTP; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 15:11:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <324B71F9-826E-4042-BBEE-00B92F2315E4@gmail.com> References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <4BBF76A1.4000604@lojban.org> <4BBFF024.2080101@gmail.com> <4BC0355D.1010508@lojban.org> <4BC0B3CE.5040005@gmail.com> <8CCA6F068EC8210-1A3C-934F@webmail-d035.sysops.aol.com> <132833F1-0520-4DCB-BDDE-312E4376FCDA@gmail.com> <8CCA70C59E211E4-1AB8-1DCB3@Webmail-d124.sysops.aol.com> <324B71F9-826E-4042-BBEE-00B92F2315E4@gmail.com> From: Christopher Doty Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 15:11:56 -0700 Received: by 10.100.233.1 with SMTP id f1mr3583350anh.134.1270937536082; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 15:12:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Response ro Robin's "Essay on the future of Lojban" To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.47 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=suomichris@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: suomichris@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/33d26e8385fed297 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/48fe5a82874d51e4 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636b42df55eb5510483e93429 --001636b42df55eb5510483e93429 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The issue is not, I think, one of narrow-mindedness. Most linguists are interested in theoretical frameworks of understanding how languages work, and what they do in the wild. Conlangs don't really help with this. Although Lojban and Toki Pona and a few others have interesting linguistic facts, they nonetheless fail to provide insight into what language is and how it works and develops* (since, by definition, they have been designed and not developed naturally). And, since most conlangs completely lack anything of linguistic interest, it isn't surprising that the few that do tend to be missed. What's more, most conlangs (again with a few notable exceptions) look very, very much like the native language of their designer(s). Lojban is included in this category, by the way: in terms of word order, general morphological processes, etc., Lojban looks very much like a nicely behaved Indo-European language, albeit one with extensions for the aspects of predicate logic. There isn't much reason to look at conlangs for linguistic evidence or theory (although sociolinguistic aspects and other things could certainly b= e of interest). Chris * This could, of course, change if one of them were adopted widely and bega= n to develop of its own accord. On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 14:45, Michael Everson w= rote: > On 10 Apr 2010, at 22:31, Seth wrote: > > > i dont know... all but a few of my classmates and professors all but sp= it > when prescriptivism, conlangs, or orthographies are mentioned. those thin= gs > aren't "real linguistics" to them. when i have told them about Esperanto > having natives, they entirely disregard the phenomenon as "not important"= . > maybe my ling department is just particularly biased, but it is a large > department, not just one isolated nazi. > > Then they are just bigots with their own narrow agenda. > > Seriously, that's just dumb. Neologisms are no different from conlang > engineering. Iceland has a whole institute (=CDslensk m=E1lst=F6=F0) for = devising > new terminology. That's not any different from what Zamenhof or his > followers did, or what Gode did for Interlingua. Real linguists study > Tolkien's languages both because he was a great linguist (lexicographer a= s > well as conlanger). > > Linguistics is a lot bigger than what some universities think it is, > apparently. But if your colleagues can't take joy in Quenya or Lojban, > that's evidence for their blinkeredness, nothing more. > > Michael > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --001636b42df55eb5510483e93429 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The issue is not, I think, one of narrow-mindedness. =A0Most linguists are = interested in theoretical frameworks of understanding how languages work, a= nd what they do in the wild. =A0Conlangs don't really help with this. = =A0Although Lojban and Toki Pona and a few others have interesting linguist= ic facts, they nonetheless fail to provide insight into what language is an= d how it works and develops* (since, by definition, they have been designed= and not developed naturally). =A0And, since most conlangs completely lack = anything of linguistic interest, it isn't surprising that the few that = do tend to be missed.

What's more, most conlangs (again with a few notable exc= eptions) look very, very much like the native language of their designer(s)= . Lojban is included in this category, by the way: in terms of word order, = general morphological processes, etc., Lojban looks very much like a nicely= behaved Indo-European language, albeit one with extensions for the aspects= of predicate logic. There isn't much reason to look at conlangs for li= nguistic evidence or theory (although sociolinguistic aspects and other thi= ngs could certainly be of interest).

Chris

* This could, of course, c= hange if one of them were adopted widely and began to develop of its own ac= cord.

On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 14:45, Mich= ael Everson <michael.everson@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10 Apr 2010, at 22:31,= Seth wrote:

> i dont know... all but a few of my classmates and professors all but s= pit when prescriptivism, conlangs, or orthographies are mentioned. those th= ings aren't "real linguistics" to them. when i have told them= about Esperanto having natives, they entirely disregard the phenomenon as = "not important". maybe my ling department is just particularly bi= ased, but it is a large department, not just one isolated nazi.

Then they are just bigots with their own narrow agenda.

Seriously, that's just dumb. Neologisms are no different from conlang e= ngineering. Iceland has a whole institute (=CDslensk m=E1lst=F6=F0) for dev= ising new terminology. That's not any different from what Zamenhof or h= is followers did, or what Gode did for Interlingua. Real linguists study To= lkien's languages both because he was a great linguist (lexicographer a= s well as conlanger).

Linguistics is a lot bigger than what some universities think it is, appare= ntly. But if your colleagues can't take joy in Quenya or Lojban, that&#= 39;s evidence for their blinkeredness, nothing more.

Michael

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