From lojban+bncCN673cmqFBDW-YPeBBoE0pqpwA@googlegroups.com Sat Apr 10 15:34:21 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f140.google.com ([209.85.210.140]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O0jFp-0001Qr-69; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 15:34:21 -0700 Received: by yxe4 with SMTP id 4sf2212032yxe.28 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 15:34:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:received:x-vr-score :x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score:message-id:date:from:user-agent :x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=dpkC5dqr4hn96LVaxL6P1htdsbNoXL8L20FCgPGuYig=; b=fi/gTJwqx0aA9P0gUFtMF+sC3bH0LR9Unp9B6omXqyGQTj05jjf185Ntb+NC3dT6tg JQVk3rKJiP5lHmrG71CYjHEzxtC4hNscC19u5+YgtnIfcPR5wnuL2D4uk4etGk3+DqzB O6nmtKizy5NL11JHL5m5PsJcRyjCwqHK0Vrws= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; 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Sat, 10 Apr 2010 11:19:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.42.40 with SMTP id p40mr1937703agp.3.1270923592309; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 11:19:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eastrmmtao103.cox.net (eastrmmtao103.cox.net [68.230.240.9]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 24si128501yxe.9.2010.04.10.11.19.52; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 11:19:52 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.9 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) client-ip=68.230.240.9; Received: from eastrmimpo02.cox.net ([68.1.16.120]) by eastrmmtao103.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20100410181951.SNWC27114.eastrmmtao103.cox.net@eastrmimpo02.cox.net> for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:19:51 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.100] ([70.187.225.124]) by eastrmimpo02.cox.net with bizsmtp id 3uKr1e00G2hfrC602uKrr8; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:19:51 -0400 X-VR-Score: -100.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=lL4dQe6A0XfTYzqIbzpq/h+TkgPEjAvcHnuEPneVQrQ= c=1 sm=1 a=DIPdann0B3IA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=lsg66w07okjF3vGJL2g+Jw==:17 a=OmxXPSf7Z0oftPfsJ5MA:9 a=u19MAfsPdUdOq844V66P7lY1MAYA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=C4NmGjUvUZseJHFD:21 a=WHwAGbV3d9LlB9-f:21 a=lsg66w07okjF3vGJL2g+Jw==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <4BC0C1BE.9000703@lojban.org> Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:21:50 -0400 From: Robert LeChevalier User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Response to Robin's "Essay on the future of Lojban" References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <20100409014708.GB11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BBF197D.6080601@lojban.org> <20100409222518.GN11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BC02ABC.8000300@lojban.org> <4BC08D33.3020606@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4BC08D33.3020606@gmail.com> X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.9 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) smtp.mail=lojbab@lojban.org X-Original-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/33d26e8385fed297 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/c68be6d95d4d9733 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed And Rosta wrote: And I *genuinely* can't understand on what grounds you > think it would be a good thing for the specification ('prescription' in > your words) to remain unchanged and for such a language's speech > community to grow, or on what grounds you think that the possession and > lack of comparative fluency in this pidgin respectively confer and deny > credibility. Simple. If we don't have a really *substantial* number of people comparatively fluent, then because this is an avocational language where 99% of usage takes place, there won't be a lot of uncontrolled usage, nor people learning it primarily from interacting with such usage, for any form of Lojban to ever arguably become a creole/language. (And remember please that my experience is of an era where written language, which would include IRC, isn't all that "real" for linguists, and it is the fluent uncontrolled spoken language that is necessary. With Lojbanists so geographically dispersed, even a quasi-fluent speaker like Nick has negligible chance for spontaneous conversation, and won't until there are a handful of Lojbanists in the Melbourne area.) The Klingonists have quasi-attempted to have a kid learn Klingon as they would a native language. Lojbanists have talked about it, but I don't think any have tried it. The fact that Esperantists DO have native speakers, even though they aren't numerous, and don't dominate the community or serve as the standard or model for usage, and may not speak Esperanto as their primary language, has been an argument for Esperanto being a "real" language. It cuts through a lot of the negativism from academia. lojbab -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.