From lojban+bncCOzcnrWBFBDuxYTeBBoES58jMw@googlegroups.com Sat Apr 10 18:16:54 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f166.google.com ([209.85.221.166]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O0ln7-0000yb-0P; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 18:16:53 -0700 Received: by qyk38 with SMTP id 38sf4662390qyk.1 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 18:16:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:mime-version:sender :received:in-reply-to:references:date:received:message-id:subject :from:to:x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ohX8EoZb83+LPteWn2G/QElz95XRMO5ZD8KtAhl6U/8=; b=xzmQgeS6F9I+kf/QY2pXbc3EmZ7u3ky1mGlsm9AFGO4eDSw6Y3ZS3jVVoPjR3w/JDB b1DFLmfLOPrfYj3+WGoxje8egHs0uOLwV0H0bKts8zt9XjLRMBvUUytdRZOyzCzu2xaS JwDdDJrqVx83ZJsZVkbUiXr21JzEKQFEnJ5n4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=EstnSK8ydhilEftPQA574DTGUU6qXtJ8q8qkDGWHg+HkbJlP+yAD+HNxgXhE5a0SgH q296KVyXEOJLd/Adr9ye0opJKuQaeeK6JUxth9ihUQuIr6covQ9QGy1t/h5jMDTKYnc3 h/mwZO2jRPTUKy8BCCObwNa9n3seD5W/N+CZQ= Received: by 10.224.39.14 with SMTP id d14mr103119qae.35.1270948590790; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 18:16:30 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.41.66 with SMTP id n2ls444774qae.3.p; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 18:16:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.43.84 with SMTP id v20mr206614qae.2.1270948589035; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 18:16:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.99.148 with SMTP id u20mr511037vcn.18.1270948010696; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 18:06:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.99.148 with SMTP id u20mr511036vcn.18.1270948010668; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 18:06:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f201.google.com (mail-qy0-f201.google.com [209.85.221.201]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 31si7251066vws.4.2010.04.10.18.06.49; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 18:06:49 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of pascal.akihiko@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.201 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.221.201; Received: by qyk39 with SMTP id 39so3680224qyk.24 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 18:06:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.45.20 with HTTP; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 18:06:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <4BBFF024.2080101@gmail.com> <4BC0355D.1010508@lojban.org> <4BC0B3CE.5040005@gmail.com> <8CCA6F068EC8210-1A3C-934F@webmail-d035.sysops.aol.com> <132833F1-0520-4DCB-BDDE-312E4376FCDA@gmail.com> <8CCA70C59E211E4-1AB8-1DCB3@Webmail-d124.sysops.aol.com> <324B71F9-826E-4042-BBEE-00B92F2315E4@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 02:06:49 +0100 Received: by 10.229.216.76 with SMTP id hh12mr3216756qcb.47.1270948009419; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 18:06:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Response ro Robin's "Essay on the future of Lojban" From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pascal.akihiko@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.201 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=pascal.akihiko@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: pascal.akihiko@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/33d26e8385fed297 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/c1be6a4b02accd24 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016362847e0a124700483eba423 --0016362847e0a124700483eba423 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 10 April 2010 23:11, Christopher Doty wrote: > The issue is not, I think, one of narrow-mindedness. Most linguists are > interested in theoretical frameworks of understanding how languages work, > and what they do in the wild. Conlangs don't really help with this. > Although Lojban and Toki Pona and a few others have interesting linguistic > facts, they nonetheless fail to provide insight into what language is and > how it works and develops* (since, by definition, they have been designed > and not developed naturally). And, since most conlangs completely lack > anything of linguistic interest, it isn't surprising that the few that do > tend to be missed. > > What's more, most conlangs (again with a few notable exceptions) look very, > very much like the native language of their designer(s). Lojban is included > in this category, by the way: in terms of word order, general morphological > processes, etc., Lojban looks very much like a nicely behaved Indo-European > language, albeit one with extensions for the aspects of predicate logic. > There isn't much reason to look at conlangs for linguistic evidence or > theory (although sociolinguistic aspects and other things could certainly be > of interest). > One obvious non-Indo-European aspect of Lojban is that its words don't inflect. And, unlike English, French, etc., its predicate has no division of the verb and the adjective, much like Arabic, Thai, Chinese, etc. Also worth noting is that, unlike Esperanto, Lojban isn't overtly specific about its morphosyntactic alignment; while Esperanto is explicitly nominative-accusative, Lojban is not. (In fact, I'm not sure which Lojban belongs to. Could it be the active-stative?) As to the word order, Lojban can realise both SVO and SOV without marking the arguments: mi viska ra (eng: I see it) mi ra viska (jpn: watasi-wa sore-o miru) If by word order you meant branching, Lojban is not entirely right-branching: lo cmana poi mi viska ke'a (eng: a mountain which I see) lo poi mi viska ke'a ku'o cmana (jpn: watasi-ga miru yama) And some experimental forms like: le mlatu sepo le ratcu (jpn: neko-no nezumi) = le ratcu po le mlatu (eng: the rat of the cat) There are more to the similarity between Lojban and Japanese, but I'm having difficulty putting it into English. For one thing, briefly, the distinction between the subject, object, and complement in Japanese is not as important as in English, which has led some notable Japanese linguists to suggest that every verb argument in this language is basically a complement of equal significance in its relation to the predicate, which sounds like what terbri are to its selbri in Lojban. I'm not a linguist, but I have been interested in the subjects since when I started learning Lojban. mu'o mi'e tijlan -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016362847e0a124700483eba423 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10 April 2010 23:11, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com> wrote:
The issue is not, I think, one of narrow-mindedness. =A0Most linguists are=20 interested in theoretical frameworks of understanding how languages=20 work, and what they do in the wild. =A0Conlangs don't really help with= =20 this. =A0Although Lojban and Toki Pona and a few others have interesting=20 linguistic facts, they nonetheless fail to provide insight into what=20 language is and how it works and develops* (since, by definition, they=20 have been designed and not developed naturally). =A0And, since most=20 conlangs completely lack anything of linguistic interest, it isn't=20 surprising that the few that do tend to be missed.

What's more, most conlangs (again with a few notable=20 exceptions) look very, very much like the native language of their=20 designer(s). Lojban is included in this category, by the way: in terms=20 of word order, general morphological processes, etc., Lojban looks very=20 much like a nicely behaved Indo-European language, albeit one with=20 extensions for the aspects of predicate logic. There isn't much reason= =20 to look at conlangs for linguistic evidence or theory (although=20 sociolinguistic aspects and other things could certainly be of=20 interest).

One obvious non-Indo-European aspect of Lojban is that its words don't= =20 inflect. And, unlike English, French, etc., its predicate has no=20 division of the verb and the adjective, much like Arabic, Thai, Chinese, etc. Also worth noting is that, unlike Esperanto, Lojban isn't overtly= =20 specific about its morphosyntactic alignment; while Esperanto is=20 explicitly nominative-accusative, Lojban is not. (In fact, I'm not sure= =20 which Lojban belongs to. Could it be the active-stative?)

As to the word order, Lojban can realise both SVO and SOV without=20 marking the arguments:

=A0mi viska ra (eng: I see it)
=A0mi ra viska (jpn: watasi-wa sore-o miru)

If by word order you meant branching, Lojban is not entirely=20 right-branching:

=A0lo cmana poi mi viska ke'a (eng: a mountain which I see)
=A0lo poi mi viska ke'a ku'o cmana (jpn: watasi-ga miru yama)

And some experimental forms like:

=A0le mlatu sepo le ratcu (jpn: neko-no nezumi) =3D le ratcu po le mlatu=20 (eng: the rat of the cat)

There are more to the similarity between Lojban and Japanese, but I'm= =20 having difficulty putting it into English. For one thing, briefly, the=20 distinction between the subject, object, and complement in Japanese is=20 not as important as in English, which has led some notable Japanese=20 linguists to suggest that every verb argument in this language is=20 basically a complement of equal significance in its relation to the=20 predicate, which sounds like what terbri are to its selbri in Lojban.

I'm not a linguist, but I have been interested in the subjects since=20 when I started learning Lojban.

mu'o mi'e tijlan

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