From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDhy4feBBoEaSyDtQ@googlegroups.com Sun Apr 11 08:08:42 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O0ym3-0000bc-IQ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 08:08:41 -0700 Received: by vws14 with SMTP id 14sf650463vws.16 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 08:08:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=KZRsnqH5nDDqETyMgfrSrbjsWPmWot65jU60U/06Ti8=; b=fl7vDfCQb276OgMKsoSnkEpExetnPMQDD1Bo0nfhOrSNs29Hpa3VfJE4SaGa5GB8Kw 7slCFrfObSHdDNv/ZZMIoN2chvCeu9djV3aFlOM2yoegKSQ/IodUoZWc6dj9Xs5kAhte i8Y7/8+HXpF/jnuWu/a/VukQBj8g72KM9ROpU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ingSdMfKXj2tZkhwRPLLl/UJx+C0e+XPaC39sIF5iHJI2x+JIEUVFBxnjYNrniLSBQ fGBYCiNFpYinloBx/zSAts4X8kSP0+ZNUW8v1EN61COzrwg1P3KdaMJVOkM0sPLItHgY q4cX9YWYcAJMBVz33svIUQb4UJm8G8tVbVNjE= Received: by 10.220.121.221 with SMTP id i29mr190640vcr.31.1270998497112; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 08:08:17 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.68.217 with SMTP id w25ls529707vci.1.p; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 08:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.160.69 with SMTP id m5mr657085vcx.7.1270998496090; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 08:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.160.69 with SMTP id m5mr657084vcx.7.1270998496061; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 08:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.124]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id 25si8809906vws.0.2010.04.11.08.08.14; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 08:08:15 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.124 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.124; Received: (qmail 98012 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Apr 2010 15:08:14 -0000 Message-ID: <530127.97864.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 5srZ2ZgVM1mG_XunYRsFM53yDzL.4YtpWzCWCI92dA_kUxl 9Cdv8ZM5bXOyvVwCQs0qRaHtZRmxUHQvuaIz4MNR0dx97sIY1dTKWGwtlHeC _vlvQibAjSOebxTIZ.wLrvzSnxFbUjhSpabblH3QYVf3YVJ9zsxuA8gOhAlI 4oLc95iMvDJp3nP5kTfXwRwYo6aeGY2A4X3BSQLpSz6a3tSHzlLL9lA1Fulm 0NBrXQLMCCDbsaWigUN_ImU0iQrZfGm6OrAdODKacmMI0ciE_UxSWGXq6LvL _Ke6X6yivE0QCgJLart3pAClTXbzva2Nljw035KEmADYUXsICzTKihHwkNrj 3.u5YRboJ8uRfrfXu0.cDwLnQ4JIqQ.XBjQNy Received: from [71.14.73.129] by web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 08:08:14 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/348.3 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <20100409014708.GB11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BBF197D.6080601@lojban.org> <20100409222518.GN11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BC02ABC.8000300@lojban.org> <807463.65850.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 08:08:14 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Response to Robin's "Essay on the future of Lojban" To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.124 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/33d26e8385fed297 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/4d597082846a3e58 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oh, crap, here we go again. Sorry ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, April 11, 2010 9:54:25 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] Response to Robin's "Essay on the future of Lojban" On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 10:44 AM, John E Clifford wr= ote: > From: Stela Selckiku > > "lo broda =3D zo'e noi ke'a broda". In other words it's simply something= that is an x1 > of broda. Nothing more is specified. > _________ > > Well, not exactly. Yes, that's exactly how it works. Apparently not. > For one thing, 'lo broda' has to refer to an intensional object, at leas= t sometimes (and how to tell when?), regardless of what 'broda' means. What's an intensional object? Things like "lo se nitcu"? "lo se claxu"? "lo se djica"? "lo xanri"? Well, yes and no. Some things that these might refer to are intensional ob= jects, others are not. It depends on how the reference is made (I am speak= ing here, of course, of the real 'lo' -- in the xorlo these are probably al= l intensional object just li lo gerku.) >So, if it has a single meaning, it must be of something that is at once ex= tensional and intensional -- not something that brodas are likely to be (ma= ybe even can be). Brodas are not likely to be two and three things at once, and yet "lo broda" can sometimes refer to two things and sometimes to three, and sometimes be completely unspecified as to number. The relevance of the analogy escapes me. If it is important, we have ways = of letting people know how many brodas are involved. Do we have correspond= ing ways of telling people that this case of 'lo broda' is intensional? Th= e point is that intensionality makes a logical difference, which a logical = language ought to show. If the weight of this is to be carried on the gadr= i (I don't see why it should be), then xorlo doesn't do it. > This is a major flaw, but one that could be removed fairly simply, basica= lly by going (back) to the definition you suggestand sticking to it (this i= nvolves getting xorxes to update his notion of universe of discourse and ac= cept a standard write-around, but anything is possible). The definition Stela gave is the one given in the BPFK gadri section, so there is nothing to go back to, we are already there. Going back to the time before the BPFK wandered off to cloud-cuckoo-land ge= ts a rather different result. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.