From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRCB1YfeBBoE573Ymw@googlegroups.com Sun Apr 11 08:28:24 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O0z59-0001hH-5x; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 08:28:23 -0700 Received: by vws14 with SMTP id 14sf657339vws.16 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 08:28:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=kaIPd68TfKCJ7SS9Lp/XA5/Ovq7Fw4oVjY0AqEl1NaA=; b=65EwU3NspVRAn3N2I4la7N4AEf2IVBypQgXchows2IXkntl8lZSKrjAkfLMUnxyM4O C0ww/i6dlGj/utVBd8n6y4JCGfN2gn8yHcekYnOopKdsDXZtrfialf20d1Py7RzwK3G6 SiPgkqWL7YyVMS8jlxiyKKRMcNYBNayhrQRxU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=AoDYCj8c0ctDsQZalvKJR9iy+a90ioH3G8xa+jmg43e8/0r4ZJM26D0gzO7UoTLMky O0MG7s5x+9DtQe4kgwcxeGej+4LCzWyNkeUmXRz8kXVP2OOOBM1fgwdNEahYkRBOJoEP sdrtEUtgkb105Fj387WoE/OfSTkN4dw5SsyLw= Received: by 10.220.107.86 with SMTP id a22mr193547vcp.9.1270999681349; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 08:28:01 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.79.85 with SMTP id o21ls530361vck.0.p; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 08:28:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.165.85 with SMTP id h21mr624905vcy.12.1270999680143; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 08:28:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.165.85 with SMTP id h21mr624904vcy.12.1270999680113; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 08:28:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f193.google.com (mail-qy0-f193.google.com [209.85.221.193]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 29si8845106vws.2.2010.04.11.08.27.59; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 08:27:59 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.193 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.221.193; Received: by qyk31 with SMTP id 31so8238944qyk.20 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 08:27:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.91.212 with HTTP; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 08:27:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <530127.97864.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <20100409014708.GB11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BBF197D.6080601@lojban.org> <20100409222518.GN11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BC02ABC.8000300@lojban.org> <807463.65850.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <530127.97864.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 12:27:58 -0300 Received: by 10.229.251.69 with SMTP id mr5mr4048244qcb.91.1270999678712; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 08:27:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Response to Robin's "Essay on the future of Lojban" From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.193 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/33d26e8385fed297 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/f02f6003c4d8f823 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 12:08 PM, John E Clifford wr= ote: > From: Jorge Llamb=EDas >> >> "lo broda =3D zo'e noi ke'a broda". =A0In other words it's simply someth= ing that is an x1 >> of broda. =A0Nothing more is specified. >> _________ >> >> Well, not exactly. > > Yes, that's exactly how it works. > > Apparently not. Yes, exactly so. > What's an intensional object? Things like "lo se nitcu"? "lo se > claxu"? "lo se djica"? "lo xanri"? > > Well, yes and no. =A0Some things that these might refer to are intensiona= l objects, others are not. OK, so it seems you agree that "lo se claxu" can sometimes refer to an intensional object, and sometimes not. >=A0It depends on how the reference is made (I am speaking here, of course,= of the real 'lo' -- in the xorlo these are probably all intensional object= =A0just li lo gerku.) I meant the references made as I made them, namely: "lo se nitcu", "lo se claxu", "lo se djica", "lo xanri". I don't know why you need to make any assumptions about xorlo, since I have just told you how it works, why that "probably"? It's simple: lo se nitcu =3D zo'e noi ke'a se nitcu lo se claxu =3D zo'e noi ke'a se claxu lo se djica =3D zo'e noi ke'a se djica lo xanri =3D zo'e noi ke'a xanri lo gerku =3D zo'e noi ke'a gerku >=A0If it is important, we have ways of letting people know how many brodas= are involved. Indeed. >=A0Do we have corresponding ways of telling people that this case of 'lo b= roda' is intensional? Probably yes, but "lo" by itself doesn't do it. >=A0The point is that intensionality makes a logical difference, which a lo= gical language ought to show. Of course it does, just like number, manner of distribution, etc, make logical differences, that sometimes matter and sometimes don't. >=A0If the weight of this is to be carried on the gadri (I don't see why it= should be), Neither do I see why it should be. We agree! >then xorlo doesn't do it. Of course it doesn't, that's the whole point. It is not something that has to be carried on the gadri. (Unless perhaps the gadri "lo'e" has something to do with it, but nobody really knows how "lo'e" really works yet, and in that case the keyword "typical" would be nonsense.) mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.